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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

Vampire Comparison YT Video With False Informationpage  1 2 3 4 

Manos Sg

Posts 74
17 Apr 2021 17:56


Have you guys seen this video?

EXTERNAL LINK 
I usually enjoy this youtuber very much, but I am not sure about this one, if this was intentional/biased or not.

He also made a defense video afterwards:
EXTERNAL LINK


Mark Mc Fadden

Posts 36
17 Apr 2021 18:15


Denis's videos are usually excellent. To be honest its not his 1200 and it looks like its not on the latest core/coffin version or something with the ReAmiga build.
I give him the benefit of the doubt as hes a really nice guy. He's just commenting on what he sees with that 1200.


Manos Sg

Posts 74
17 Apr 2021 18:35


Yes, I also love this guy's passion and enthusiasm and positive spirit. :)

I also like to think that it was an innocent boo-boo. :D


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
17 Apr 2021 18:52


You mean "is he very lazy" or "just stupid or clueless" or "does he post nonsense on purpose"?
   
 
You would assume that someone taking the time to make a video of benchmarks would do it right?
I assume making such a video takes quite some time.
   
 
Would it be to much to read the "instruction manual" before doing a video?
Or maybe even consult online support if he has questions?
You know: we do offer free 24/7 support channel. 
 
This reminds my on Steven Jones when Steve made a IDE speed benchmark and was actually rubbishing the Vampire.
And he benchmarked IDE without turning FASTIDE on, without wondering that why he only gets a fraction of what is printed as result he should get.
   
Today this looks like this:
  - With FASTIDE ON = 20 MB/sec
  - With FASTIDE OFF = 3.5 MB/Sec
   
So if 20MB/sec is advertised on the box, why would you wonder if you not get this?
   
What is the reason people make videos like this?
He spends surely 2 hours making a video but has not 1 minute to read the manual.
   


Mark Mc Fadden

Posts 36
17 Apr 2021 19:13


I dont think theres any need for being so agressive. Not everyone is technical, product is out the and non techies will use it and post videos about it.
 
  For new v1200's do you include a card in the box describing the minimum core version which should be used? Or are they released with the latest core version?

Also maybe this is an opportunity to improve how information is available? Things are hard to find here, it would be a lot easier if the forums were split between v4, v2 and general, with a sticky at the top of each v4/v2 subforum on the latest cores to use, issues it addresses etc.



Smartroad 78

Posts 113
17 Apr 2021 19:22


Wow Gunnar that is really rude and defensive. Rather than being supportive and saying "looks like you have some settings wrong, let me help you find out what's up with that setup" you go for name calling with "he is stupid or lying".

I just downloaded that demo on my V1200 and using the internal IDE (as I am running 2.12 which is the current firmware listed on Apollo-Accelerators) with a hard drive I got a launch time of 1 minute 45 seconds. Which is more than his time but I accept that I am running on A) the internal IDE port which is slow and B) it is a spinning drive. This would suggest, given the numbers in your post, he doesn't have FastIDE on.

You say "You would assume that someone taking the time to make a video of benchmarks would do it right?" which makes a massive assumption that he knows that there could be a setting to change. Maybe you could update the troubleshooting page on Apollo-Accelerators to include a section on slow load speeds from the Vampire IDE, it says about getting read/write errors and mentions FastIDE. Seeing as you now have two situations where this seems to have been a cause for concern.

I know it is hard to swallow when someone bashes something that you have spent much time and effort creating. But it looks better when you look at ways to help them understand in a sympathetic manner and they are much more likely to respond positively as well.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
17 Apr 2021 19:34


smartroad 78 wrote:

You say "You would assume that someone taking the time to make a video of benchmarks would do it right?" which makes a massive assumption that he knows that there could be a setting to change.

 
Yes, in my opinion this is a justified assumption for someone doing a technical review.
 
Lets assume someone would do a video reviewing a "CAR".
And in his video complain that car does not reach 50 miles per hour.
 
Tell me if you would expect from an video car reviewer
to understand that this car has a manual shift
and he can shift the gear?

And yes this information is available.
a) Please mind that every customer gets invited into the support channel and if he/she has any problems or question. He/she gets support and answers there. So if you make a video and are not sure about something it only takes you 1 minute to verify this with the experts.
b) Of course the FASTIDE settings are visible and setable from Menu-Coffin
c) The performance you should expect is also very clearly written on the product page on this website and on the shop website. And yes I think a serious reviewer would look at the product page.

Please mind that my complain about the Fast-IDE review was referring to Steve's video.


Mark Mc Fadden

Posts 36
17 Apr 2021 19:42


2 types of people will do car reviews, those who are technical who are interested in bhp, how long it takes from 0-60mph
The other type just wants a car, they want to go from a to b, they have kids and care about boot size.

This is highlighting that non techies are not aware of the implications of using out of date cores. You have a product and should address those non techies also and make the info easily available.
Like i said, see it as an opportunity to improve than dwelling on the negatives.

A forum split of vampire versions would be a start for improvements.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
17 Apr 2021 19:54


Mark Mc Fadden wrote:

  A forum split of vampire versions would be a start for improvements.
 

I'm 100% with you that documentation is important and we worked a lot in this area in the last few month.
But of course there is always room for more.
 
BTW Do you know that we have an online support channel?
We provide free 24/7 online support.
And this online support has  separate areas for accelerators and standalone.




Manos Sg

Posts 74
17 Apr 2021 20:03


While Gunnar's reaction is understandable for me, maybe this video is just a symptom of a lack of easy-to-reach information? Of course, this does not excuse the YouTuber from making a lazy review, without first learning how to properly use the Vampire.

Getting to run the Vampire at its full potential can sometimes have a steep learning curve and a lot of trial and error. Maybe there is chance here for some idiot's guide to getting the most out of the Vampire. I could sure use such a guide myself sometimes! :P


Mark Mc Fadden

Posts 36
17 Apr 2021 20:05


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

   
Mark Mc Fadden wrote:

      A forum split of vampire versions would be a start for improvements.
   

   
    Do you know that we have an online support channel?
    Allowing user 24/7 to get support. With separate areas for accelerators and standalone.
   

    I understand that. I know where you are coming from, i write software for a living, i dont suffer fools, however i have to deal with sales and marketing and have to provide tech info thqt is easily digestible for those folk.
   
    Do you not think a forum split for v2/v4 is a good idea? If not why?
    The point is to make information more readibly available.
    Only trying to give advice, which of course you are free to ignore, im technical so ill search around for the info i need, but thats not everyone.
 
  Note: i dont mean separate forums, i mean subforums for v2, v4(instead of just Vampire as it is today) and stickies with latest core info and link to faq


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
17 Apr 2021 20:15


manos sg wrote:

Getting to run the Vampire at its full potential can sometimes have a steep learning curve

 
I understand this.
But we have now "manuals" and "getting started PDFs" and we provide a 24/7 support online channel and even a telephone number people could call if they need help.
 
I see this video reviewer benchmarked a system he not owned.
So he not understood it. He obviously had some issue.
Did he care to find out about it?
Did he care to verify that the system he tested was in good shape?
Did this video reviewer use any of the info we provide?
Did he contact us and ask for clarification or use any of the offered free help channels?

My impression is he did nothing of all this.
He reviewed an broken system and not even cared to verify that it was correctly installed.
He not contacted us at all.
He not asked for advice.

I have the feeling he not cared at all.
He did not read the manual, he did not call the help number, he did not ask for help on the online channel.
 
Is this lazy? Is this not clever?

What is the purpose of then making a video and publishing it?


Mark Mc Fadden

Posts 36
17 Apr 2021 20:19


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
manos sg wrote:

  Getting to run the Vampire at its full potential can sometimes have a steep learning curve
 

   
  I understand this.
  But we have now "manuals" and "getting started PDFs" and we provide a 24/7 support online channel and even a telephone number people could call if they need help.
   
  I see this video reviewer did have some issue.
  But did this video reviewer use any of the info and offered help available?
  He did not read the manual, he did not call the help number, he did not ask for help on the online channel.
   
  Is this lazy? Is this not clever?
  What is this?
 

  If you watched the video he was loaned the 1200 with v1200, he did not know how it was configured and assumed it was optimal.

Anyway, it looks like theres no interest in improving the customer experience for vampires so ill leave it at that.


Smartroad 78

Posts 113
17 Apr 2021 20:21


Given your reaction here Gunnar, I could well understand why people may not avail themselves of the support channels.

You still assume that the person is technically minded and not a keen hobbyist just doing a comparison, which is how I took the video.

You comparison to a professional car reviewer is possibly fair, if this was a professional, not what I felt this guy is (no offence to him, just my impression of his video). And even it it was, I cant imagine a car company publicly calling the reviewer an idiot or liar, even if they felt that internally. They would just politely point out that there is a gear shifter and that can be used to propel the vehicle faster.

I understand that the fast-ide complaint was about another review, yet this seems to be a similar issue and my suggestion was to update the troubleshooting guide on the website to head off further issues and gives you a place to politely point them to. It might also be worth adding in a link to the manual which can be updated as the firmware updates and gives a record incase included manuals get lost or misplaced.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
17 Apr 2021 20:38


smartroad 78 wrote:

Given your reaction here Gunnar, I could well understand why people may not avail themselves of the support channels.

     
People asking for help always get help.
     
People making videos reviews but neither caring to read manuals, might be called for what being lazy or to stupid to ReadTheManual or not caring to spend 1 minute to ask in the support channels.
     
Checking into support channel would haven taken just 1 minute time.
How much time does it take to record such a video?
Please tell me is this 30minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours or more?
 
We try to help people and we do offer free telephone and online support.

I fully understand that a nontechnical users can have question or problems. Amiga OS is very intuitive but there are always issues to ask. If you make your business of spending hours making videos - and you have a problem why was spending 1 minute to ask in free support channel not possible here?




Anita Kai

Posts 4
17 Apr 2021 22:16


Some people just should not even try do "reviews"...


Manos Sg

Posts 74
17 Apr 2021 22:17


Help for any Vampire issues is, as far as my experience goes, is fast, reliable and friendly. There is also a wealth of information in the forums and so Gunnar has every right to feel frustrated. Heck, even I, a simple user, felt angry when this reviewer laughed at the Vampire's performance, even when it was apparent that the setup was problematic.
 
  But getting to know the Vampire can take some time and the reviewer, assuming his V1200 was already setup perfectly, naturally thought that this was what the Vampire was capable of. OTOH, even after so many people told him that his V1200 was problematic, he didn't care to do some research before uploading a defense video in which he just fumbles about blindly and, of course, solves nothing.
 
  But let's forget about this particular guy, ok? What is the attitude of the vampire community towards such people? Of course, we can simply dismiss them as lazy or whatever, but I think that this raises the question if there are other people like him and how can the vampire experience become even more user friendly and intuitive.
 
  I think we have a lot of things to lose if we alienate vamp-skeptical amiga enthusiasts by being aggressive and/or defensive and we have so many to gain by trying to understand their perspective and help them, in a positive, constructive manner, get the full Vamp experience!


Smartroad 78

Posts 113
17 Apr 2021 23:02


manos sg wrote:

I think we have a lot of things to lose if we alienate vamp-skeptical amiga enthusiasts by being aggressive and/or defensive and we have so many to gain by trying to understand their perspective and help them, in a positive, constructive manner, get the full Vamp experience!

I agree and the point I was attempting to make. No offence to Gunnar, I totally understand it is incredibly frustrating knowing that the problems can be easily solved and that there are avenues to help solve them that haven't been taken. But as you say, as annoying as it is, the response needs to be polite and constructive, even if it has to be done through "gritted teeth" and a huge fake smile.

Gunnar, I honestly don't mean to offend you. What you and the team have created is amazing and I am more than happy with my V1200. But when dealing with difficult/frustrating situations it often is better to take the high ground or just just say nothing. Otherwise you risk reinforcing a negative impression both of the product and the company that may not be deserved. Publicly calling the guy stupid or a lair just doesn't look good, even if it were true.

All you needed to say is "I don't agree with it, it looks like there is a setting wrong, maybe FastIDE isn't enabled. Please feel free to contact me and we can see if we can get this running right." which looks far better than saying he is "just stupid or clueless".


Cego 1200

Posts 42
18 Apr 2021 00:50


back in the day, you always got a install disk with your accelerator, which would automatically install all the needed tools and modify the startup-sequence.
I think this could be a good idea for the V1200.
There should also be a documentation on disk.
Discord is only suited for the casual help as its pretty hard to filter out the needed information and it takes time to get a reply.

So in a way its understandable that Retrocengo had no idea on how to use the card properly and i cant really blame him for that. When i first got my card, i had the same issues and a steep learning curve.

maybe its time for me to learn how to create an AmigaGuide document. The Vampire is wasting a lot of potential here...


Thorsten B

Posts 17
18 Apr 2021 01:02


What this situation shows is the need for better structured information!

Why did he use Coffin? Because the rest doesn't work out of the box!

Why didn't he use Apollo OS? Lets pray he doesn't try right now.

Why didn't he use the latest Core? Because there are several places to get one! Its like my Mum who just brought an easter basket we missed.. Yeah! Just missed one place...

Why didn't he use better whdload settings? Why should he? The argument that the 060 came with settings only shows that the Vampire didn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm total pro Vampire and will get a V1200 next to my 2 V500  as soon as its available!

But right now this is too easy for the 060 guys. They send in one of their content creators and the only thing we can say is: Well it would work if you first do a list of 20 things which you didn't know existed!

Yes, there's 24/7 support! Fine, I send a question and then I wait for an answer? Hey, I'm 45 and full time employed! I can read structured information in my free time but I certainly will not spend hours on discord.

We need one (!)structured archive for cores and information regarding them! Same goes for Apollo OS! The setup process needs to be documented (far) better and the hiccups regarding ROM need to be seen from client side! I know Apollo prefers Apollo OS! But currently you don't deliver for the accelerator users so please accept that people will use e.g. 3.1.4 or coffin until a working alternative is to be seen.

This is no rant, I knew that something like this was to happen because, like I said, its far too easy to make the Vampire look bad just because the user has a hard time getting the product in the right shape. This is no problem of the product but of the documentation.

Just my 2 Cents..

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