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Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 53
31 Oct 2019 10:14


Hi Vojin!

First of all, I understand your point of view and I can be more or less agree with you, but Ím sure just now team´s resources and time are so limited.

Adding Linux support at this time would be an effort with not so good results compared to X86 or ARM systems. I mean... Core is running on an FPGA, nor GHZ frequencies not fast interfaces like SATA, Gigabit ethernet, etc... here yet).

On the other way, supporting smaller alternative kernels or OSes here would be much better (Minix, Haiku...), but again, tools and compilers needed...

I am not a big “fan” of GCC here, but till team and developers do not have an optimised compiler (this “messy” GCC or other), talking about other OSes is just a loose of energy at this moment and extra pressure for the team.

Hope you get my point.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
31 Oct 2019 10:21


Gerardo González-Trejo wrote:

  Hi Vojin!
 
  First of all, I understand your point of view and I can be more or less agree with you, but Ím sure just now team´s resources and time are so limited.
 

 
  I agree current priorities are ironing V4 core, releasing GOLD3 for v2 and letting SA and V1200 mass produce.
 
  But this is important foundation for the future (e.g. V6 model might be CPU powerful enough etc. and its better to have some foundation before). And in lack of high end Amiga productivity apps, Linux apps can save the day. Its easier to crosscompile and run them then to fully backport to AmigaOS.
 
  And many of OS4 and newer OS3, AROS ... apps and enhancements do come from Linux/FLOSS camp. So, negativity either is sad and a bit mad.

Haiku is nice BeOS kind of branch, I see Sylabille EXTERNAL LINK has gone a bit further in usability. Is it closer to what Amigans wish?

I am no kernel or OS expert, I just like that Linux can go everyhere, can be customized to anyones needs and does the job using less resources then more bloted OSs - does more or faster on same hw. And this reminds me a bit of my AmigaOS likes.
 


Markus B

Posts 207
31 Oct 2019 10:21


Vojin, Linux on Amiga was never really a thing. Your illusion to bring modern applications this way to a Amiga is simply bullshit, to be honest.

If someone is willing to enhance the kernel to support the MMU in the AC68080, he should do so. But from perspective the team should not bind any resources in this topic.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
31 Oct 2019 10:25


Markus B wrote:

      Vojin, Linux on Amiga was never really a thing. Your illusion to bring modern applications this way to a Amiga is simply bullshit, to be honest.
     

     
      Because PPC Amiga Classic died quick and m68k support was officially dropped within few years.On A1s AEON did not care enough to provide mainstream distro support, but hacking via "AmigaOne Linux team", so in the end only PPC Mac and IBM POWER support remained official.

No one cared enough so Linux could be useful on Amiga.  But, ask Peg, A1, MacPPC users how Linux brought more life and proven hardware is great and usable, even in 2019.
     
      Tell me the other way to bring more modern apps. Netsurf is also a FLOSS app as an example.
 
  No one is binding any resources, team has other priorities now. Maybe someone from Linux community could do the job if he had Vamp, motivation and documented ApolloMMU. Nothing happens by magic. Similar situation is with AROS, just in other way.


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 53
31 Oct 2019 10:36


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

I am no kernel or OS expert, I just like that Linux can go everyhere, can be customized to anyones needs and does the job using less resources then more bloted OSs - does more or faster on same hw.
 

Linux nowadays is as bloated as any other big OS. Porting it to V2 or V4 would not get more sales or beneficts to users.


Marlon Beijer

Posts 182
31 Oct 2019 10:45


Gerardo González-Trejo wrote:

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
  I am no kernel or OS expert, I just like that Linux can go everyhere, can be customized to anyones needs and does the job using less resources then more bloted OSs - does more or faster on same hw.
   
 

 
  Linux nowadays is as bloated as any other big OS. Porting it to V2 or V4 would not get more sales or beneficts to users.

It's the distros that are bloated. You can strip down a Linux kernel to the bare essentials and it will be pretty small. Then it's about which software you pick. There are still apps and desktops designed for low end systems. So no Linux is not bloated


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 53
31 Oct 2019 10:57


Marlon Beijer wrote:

  It´s the distros that are bloated. You can strip down a Linux kernel to the bare essentials and it will be pretty small. Then it's about which software you pick. There are still apps and desktops designed for low end systems. So no Linux is not bloated
 

 
  Marlon, please check updated info about linux kernel size here on 2019. You will see that statement is not true anymore. That was true more than 20 years ago... How many dozen of millions of lines of code means “pretty small”?
 
  I think it is important we understand it evolved and just now is huge...


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
31 Oct 2019 11:10


a linux desktop using those apps listed below should run well on apollo-core, and it would be nice to see this project getting to represent the whole 68k family, because right now there's not much 68k hardware around available, i mean they are all old, and people are talking about removing 68k support from their work (gcc compiler and  also distros dropping support for old unused archs).
it would be nice if this project could help the 68k in general to Not being considered as a thing of the past "noone use anymore". new things are happening in the 68k world and apollo-core might represent just that.
so having linux running would prove them maintainer that this hardware branch is not dead there's users and new things happening and so it doesn't need to be removed from the source tree.

list of lightweight apps,
for running a fast linux desktop on slower hardware:

desktop: i3
browser: netsurf or links
file manager: mc, ranger, lf
pic viewer: sxiv
irc: irssi
calendar: calcurse
text editor/dev: vim
video/music: mpv
rss: newsboat

if packaged as a distro, this would be quite small and not bloated.
something like 50mb or so should be doable.


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 53
31 Oct 2019 11:46


Guys, please run CLOC on any Git you want to port/run (Linux, Aros, Minix...) on Vampire V2 or V4. You will get the lines of code each of those project have.

Ok, let´s avoid all Code related to drivers, docs, etc... Still how many lines you have?

Taking in mind <1000 lines means it is a simple project and >100000 lines means it is a very large and complex project. Where is Linux situated then?

Ok, let´s recompile Linux, optimize a bit... Which is the real benefict of porting it to V2 or V4, running on FPGA?

Still I could understand porting MINIX, but not Linux, frankly.


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
31 Oct 2019 11:49


@gerardo
it's not a 'port' ..  68k distros already exists.


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 53
31 Oct 2019 12:23


nicolas sipieter wrote:

  @gerardo
  it's not a 'port' ..  68k distros already exists.
 

 
  Nicolas, I don´t remember where I posted  that 68K distros do not exist, maybe because I never wrote or posted that.
 
  Anyway I am listing there several OSes and I specify “run/port”, and if you want to run on a new arquitecture and, on some way, 68080, SAGA or any other new “enhacements” are, then you have to “port”, “write new code”, “enhace”, “optimize”... whatever you want to name it.
 
  Still I would like to read a good argument showing which is the real benefict of using Linux on V2 or V4.

I am not a native english speaker, to not to offend sensitivities ;)
 
 


Carlos Milán

Posts 93
31 Oct 2019 14:10


I really love Linux, but I agree that getting 040 MMU into Apollo Core may be a not very productive overhead for the devs and a serious usage of FPGA's LE.
 
  Instead, implementing the code needed for making the Linux kernel compatible with already present Apollo Core MMU should be the way to go... if that's possible. The main stopper for this is the lack of documentation of that MMU.
 
  Do not forget also that only stock Amiga hardware is supported out of the box in Linux and even x86 PCMCIA drivers are not reusable in m68k.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
31 Oct 2019 14:58


nicolas sipieter wrote:

     
        it would be nice if this project could help the 68k in general to Not being considered as a thing of the past "noone use anymore". new things are happening in the 68k world and apollo-core might represent just that.
        so having linux running would prove them maintainer that this hardware branch is not dead there's users and new things happening and so it doesn't need to be removed from the source tree.
     
      Do not forget also that only stock Amiga hardware is supported out of the box in Linux a
     

     
      Exactly! Better HelloWorld does NOT exist!
     
      Old APUS and Deb 3.xx can be found on Aminet with more specific old Amiga drv

  Yes, because Amiga and Linux love did not least long, drivers are under developed. Right point.
 
    m68k installing 
    EXTERNAL LINK   
  Aminet other OS incl Deb 3 and Deb9
  EXTERNAL LINK


Stefan "Bebbo" Franke

Posts 139
06 May 2021 20:02


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

...
   
    Aminet other OS incl Deb 3 and Deb9
  EXTERNAL LINK 

How do you get that debian9 running in WinUAE?


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
07 May 2021 02:21


Should be quite ready. Sadly have just V4 so I cant test.
      Just set e.g. A4000 040 AGA with a2065 network card
     
     
      Clean install of Debian m68k 3.1r8 (Sarge) on hdf for WinUAE.
      With ffs boot-partition configured for autoboot right into debian. The ffs
      partition contains only amiboot and kernel, no Amiga system-files included.
     
      Root password is: root
     
      There is one configured user: user
      With password: pass
     
      The network is configured for a2065 with dhcp (needs WinPCAP) and apt is
      configured for archive.debian.org and ready to go.
     
      The hdf is approx 3,5Gig and contains 3 partitions:
      LDH0: approx 512MB FFS boot-drive
      LDH1: approx 2,5Gig e3fs Linux Root
      LDH2: approx 512MB Linux Swap
     
      The UAE config file I use to boot it is also included in the archive.
   
    / There is also one with X11
    EXTERNAL LINK   

    If it lives, one can later experiment with RTG
   
    Experimental Deb9
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    Or last Deb3
    EXTERNAL LINK   
  Cross compiled old kernels
  EXTERNAL LINK   

  1997 manual
  EXTERNAL LINK    Requirements:
------------
Any Amiga from 68020+ WITH a MMU!!! A FPU isn't a neccesaity 'coz you can
get a FPU-emulated kernel. But, having one makes life easier.
Also, you are gonna need at least 80megs seperate partition for the bare
minimum installation.

  Or we just should call a day? :)
 
  EXTERNAL LINK


Stefan "Bebbo" Franke

Posts 139
07 May 2021 06:45


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  Should be quite ready. Sadly have just V4 so I cant test.
      Just set e.g. A4000 040 AGA with a2065 network card

...

Should... but isn't.

The old Debian 2 with X is working fine in WinUAE.

The newer ones are causing headache:

* amiboot fails to unpack the kernel
* using an untar'ed kernel leads to a guru or hang...

and WinUAE is available to experiment without owning a real Amiga.



Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
07 May 2021 19:57


Stefan "Bebbo" Franke wrote:

      and WinUAE is available to experiment without owning a real Amiga.
   

   
    Never been fan of, even it made "virtual existence and advancement" in CBM fold to Vampire era. I use it as AmiKit X, but am not good at playing with its options.
   
    I prefered Amithlon as emulation approach, but sadly it did not continue to support PC hardware so its useless unless in virtual box, which kind makes beats its purpose of being more native. I like AROS going all CPU platforms and MorphOS trying to AMD64 port, underlying hardware is less and less important these days, except for its availability and decent pricing.
   
    Maybe someone testing on real A4000 could give some insight?
   
    Anyway, letting world know how PMMU works could enable someone to do kernel hack/port  would be most welcome. Or MMU 68k support on V4 and V1200, if fits FPGA.(or some software wrapper?)
   
    Likewise explained Classic Non MINT Atari, Linux, and some other m68k sys needs it, if it was not used much on Amiga.
   
    I wonder does this no MMU enforcer can help AmigaOS developers meanwhile, that have been most vocal of Enforcer not working
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    Abet, testing ucLinux by some real Linux geek on Vamps could be the way. But I am not that deep in Linux console to survive :)
 
  I love Linux for its versatility and efficiency, not internals :)


Andy Hearn

Posts 365
14 May 2021 11:21


speaking of linux's internals,
    it seems I've fallen at the first hurdle.
   
    using "StartInstall" or "StartInstall_CV3D" on the deb10m68k bundle:-
   
    the script gets as far as it's found the autoconfig devices, the ram, and put the kernal at 0x08000000 which is the begining of the CPU slot ram,
    Bootstrap version is 2.0
    Kernal boot info version is 2.0
    ram disk at 0x084e9f36 is 8meg
    kernal segment 0 at blah
    segment 1 at blah
    ramdisk blah blah blah
   
    "type a key to continue the Linux/m68k boot..."
   
    press a key, and get a software failure notice:-
    Amiboot
    Program failed (error #80000004).
    Wait for disk activity to finish
    [suspend]    [reboot]
   
    now it's running off of a PFS formatted disk. is that the problem?
    [edit] nope.
    took a 4gig CF card, partitioned into 3x 1.2gig partitions, formatted all partitions to ffs.
    copied the deb10m68k files to the first partition, and still the same problem with amiboot crashing...? googling now see if i can find any answers...
  [edit2]
  ok getting a bit further, i put a base workbench install on the drive and booted that. now we seem to be getting somewhere with amiboot install script. the screens gone black and it's telling me that signal is out of range, and the floppy drive has stopped clicking... looking for a monitor that can handle amiga weird screen modes even though i launched the CV_3D installer...
  [edit3]
  found a microvitec 1438, so this makes sense now. the RGB port is driving 31khz video hence the scan doubler not liking it much. The CV_3D installer fails to open a screen so falls back to AGA. am actually in the linux installer, but it fails to detect the CD drive i have on ID 1 on the amiga's IDE interface. looking to see if i can copy whatever files it wants locally... what files will i need? remembering why i hated linux apus on my cyberstormPPC back in the day.
   
    system is an A4000/030 cyberstorm3 with 128meg (nothing connected to the scsi)
    16meg fast on the mainboard
    zorro cards:- Cybervision64/3D, Bigram 256meg, ariadne2 network card, x-surf100 network card with rapid road USB.


Carlos Milán

Posts 93
16 May 2021 23:49


Several things to check:
Is your 030 a full one? You need MMU to boot the kernel.
Which version of amiboot are you using? 6.0 is quite unstable, I recommend 5.6 BUT that one need the kernel image uncompressed.
Last, what kernel boot parameters are you using?

Regarding device support, internal Amiga IDE should be supported. If I recall correctly, CV framebuffer support was removed from the boot up, try to use the AGA video mode.

Boot options for Amiga are quite well explained here: EXTERNAL LINK


Andy Hearn

Posts 365
17 May 2021 11:47


Hey Carlos, thanks for coming back on this
  i'm running a full 68060, and i have got as far as booting the kernal into "debootstrap" i think? it's a 31khz screen coming off of the A4000's AGA RGB port
 
  i don't know what version of amiboot i'm running, but i'm running the debian10 m68k download that's linked in this thread...
[edit]
    Debian GNU/Linux 10.0 "Sid" - Unofficial m68k NETINST 20180516-18:18

  i have a blue screen with ascii menus on it, and i get through selecting the keyboard type, and the country, then it looks for a CDROM drive - this is where it fails.
  i can see that it finds the IDE drives, but it assigns /dev/hdb to the optical drive device it finds at unit 1 on the A4000's IDE port.
  I can also see that it finds 5 auto-config things, which are my zorro cards and CPU board - but it doesn't really seem to go into detail what it's found and if those are assigned to any devices.
 
  anyway. the CDROM device mount fails, so it asks me what device to use to find the optical drive so i have the chance to say "/dev/hdb" but that fails. not sure if it fails because it is actually looking for media that isn't there - i don't know what media to mount, as the full 150meg net-installer CD is available where i'm launching ... unless amiboot - once it's through launching the kernal, doesn't know about amiga FFS partitions...?
  that's what i'm thinking, so probably have to burn that Deb10 netinstaller ISO to a CD? can't i have it on a drive partition somewhere? that'd make life much easier...

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