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Questions and Answers for AMIGA Workbench or Coffin

3.1.4 Rom ... What Are the Benefits?page  1 2 3 4 

Andy Hearn

Posts 302
18 May 2020 20:08


so, i've bought the 3.1.4roms and workbench sets for *most* of my machines:-
but a thought occurs. as much as i want to support new development - hence buying. i've not actually installed anything on any of my machines.

i'm looking at the forums and wondering to myself - in light of the workbench distro's that are out there, is there any real point?

can anyone enlighten me as to any tangible real world benefits they've seen, and are benefiting from, besides just reading the spec sheet off the website please - as i'm at a bit of a loss as to why i should jump through the hoops to re-flash to 3.1.4, when all it seems to bring is more pain?

whats the "killer app" that 3.1.4 brings to the table that people are loving? this is not meant as anything other than me being genuinely interested in what people are doing/seeing from 3.1.4 ouut there in the real amigaland as it exists today

cheers guys! :)


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4796
18 May 2020 20:16


Andy Hearn wrote:

whats the "killer app" that 3.1.4 brings to the table

well mostly you support companies which use your money to file lawsuits to kill companies developing for Amiga...


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
18 May 2020 20:34


@Andy, I won't touch the "politics", whos makeing money on what etc, but the way I see it 3.1.4 is not about killer apps.. Its about a new, improved baseline for all Amigas. It doesn't att a bunch of what some may call bloatware seen in 3.5, 3.9. Its about improving the stuff you really want out of the box when you first start the computer.. Like 060 autodetect, better file system support.
The other aspect of it is to actually have people dusting off super old code and get it to compile, which was never an easy feat.
So in that respect it was something of an experiment.. Are people interested in paying for keeping 3.1 fresh?
As you may know, the list for 3.2 improvements is already quite long.

I just wish the lawyers could stay out of this one day... I understand the AROS people but I still hope for a better situation with original 3.x OS


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1697
18 May 2020 22:56


Benefit is supporting Hyperion in having "a product more". Seems Update 1 is only update, and new update called OS 3.2 will be paid product again.
 
  I fail to see much benefits of OS 3.1.4 to patched OS 3.9, really.
 
  Its a way advanced to plain OS 3.1, but too sad does not catch up with many advancements made in OS 3.5 and OS 3.9. Thus the designation.
 
  Maybe its satisfaction of having ROM pic and WB about with newer date.


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
18 May 2020 23:18


In a way its good that there are choices for users with different preferences, in other ways, it increases fragmentation which is not ideal.
But.. 3.1.4 is actually working for Amigas from low end to high end.. 3.9 has much higher system requirements..
Some people dont want added bloat which soon becomes obsolete anyway.
3.1.4 is just a clean WB experience with some useful updates. It's not revolutionary - the way I see it, they were testing the interest from users.. See if it was worth poking around in 27 years old code. Yea they probably wanted to see if its possible to continue squeezing out some cash from the old cow, but if it leads to 3.2 then a lot of people will be quite happy to pay up some more.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1697
19 May 2020 01:38


Daniel Sevo wrote:

  But.. 3.1.4 is actually working for Amigas from low end to high end.. 3.9 has much higher system requirements..
  Some people dont want added bloat which soon becomes obsolete anyway.

While this is in general true, one can argue that 3.1.4 also has higher memory requirements - at least 2MB RAM is recommended.

Also, requirement for new ROM (which is not widely avail as physical) can eat additional 512K for softkicking.

So, there OS 3.5 requires just "020", a bit more FAST and CD ROM :)

So, in my eyes, "such purists" should stick to e.g. OS 3.1 and BetterWB or such. With few patches, one can easily "level up" to OS 3.1.4

In my eyes, most of OS 3.5 or OS 3.9 "bloatware" is mostly something I do need and would install anyhow. So I find "purist OS 3.1" configs too ... lacking of so much real essentials :)

And even OS 3.2 wont bring much revolution, likely improved shell and few tricks. Like slow backporting from OS 4.1-Enhancer - implementing external features as baseline :)

And "new baseline" is exactly only good point. Sadly, again for me, OS 3.5 or OS 3.9 provide way better "baseline".


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4796
19 May 2020 07:37


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

In my eyes, most of OS 3.5 or OS 3.9 "bloatware" is mostly something I do need and would install anyhow. So I find "purist OS 3.1" configs too ... lacking of so much real essentials :)
     
And "new baseline" is exactly only good point. Sadly, again for me, OS 3.5 or OS 3.9 provide way better "baseline".

     
Yes Vojin is right.
   
OS 3.1 was a nice Kick plus nice Workbench.
But WB 3.1 is relative "naked" to be useful.
     
People will want to install a lot more datatypes to view different content (images).
People will want to install a network stack to be able to access the internet.
People will want to install useful tools to listen to MP3, to decompress LHA, to browse the internet, to view video files
You also want to update the filesystem to be able to use big partitions.
     
All this is actually the idea behind OS 3.5 and OS 3.9.
   
   
Who wants today an Amiga which is not able to browse the internet, who want an AMIGA which is not able to open JPEG, or PNG graphic files?
Who does not want to play MP3?
Who does not want to use a big CF or big harddrive?
   
   
Of course everybody wants this
In fact actually today people want more than this.
People will want a Workbench with Truecolor support,
people will want more useful tools like PFD viewer, like a good Text Editor, like MPEG videoplayer.
People today actually want a system coming preinstalled with many tools very much like Coffin.
The people behind Coffin don't get any credit and no money but they actually want to provide to the Amiga users what the users today want and need.

Now back to OS 3.1.4
OS 3.1.4. also wants what OS 3.9 provides.
In my eyes OS 3.1.4 is "re-inventing" the wheel.
They start from 3.1. again and they add patches with the goal to come to OS 3.9 levels.
 
So is reinventing the wheel good or bad?
 
I personally find any work done for Amiga is great!
 
What I find personally very "disturbing" is that none of the money made with OS 3.1.4 is given to the developers.
The developers get nothing and all did this work for free.
 
So the money is kept by a company which is known to use their money for fight legal lawsuits - which people of the Amiga community believe does "hurt" Amiga.
 
The company selling OS 3.1.4 went nearly bankrupt before and some people say it the company might go bankrupt in the future?
What will then happen to all the development put into OS 3.1.4?
Will it be Open Source? No
Or will OS 3.1.4 "die" and get lost again when this company goes bankrupt again?
The writing is on the wall.
 
This is where I see that AROS is the much better approach.
AROS development will never be lost.
 
 
We are all adults,
We can decide what we want and what we want to support.
Do you want to support that developers not get paid?
Do you want to finance with your money to fight legal lawsuits?
Do you want to support that Amiga development will in the end get lost again?


Manfred Bergmann

Posts 182
19 May 2020 10:48


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  Who wants today an Amiga which is not able to browse the internet, who want an AMIGA which is not able to open JPEG, or PNG graphic files?
 

 
  Maybe I'm browsing the wrong web sites.
  But the browsers on Amiga (AWeb, iBrowse) don't open the pages to a satisfactory level.
  Except Aminet, or WHDload.de.
  Transports are usually TLS encrypted, which makes most pages very slow, if they are viewable at all due to CSS and JavaScript limitations on Amiga.
 
 
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
 
  Now back to OS 3.1.4
  OS 3.1.4. also wants what OS 3.9 provides.
  In my eyes OS 3.1.4 is "re-inventing" the wheel.
  They start from 3.1. again and they add patches with the goal to come to OS 3.9 levels.
   
  So is reinventing the wheel good or bad?
   
  I personally find any work done for Amiga is great!
 

  What I understood is that AOS 3.9 is a dead end. For a) the license situation of some of the components and b) unavailable sources codes.
  So a fresh and actually maintainable/updatable main code base is not re-inventing the wheel.
   
 
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
 
  What I find personally very "disturbing" is that none of the money made with OS 3.1.4 is given to the developers.
  The developers get nothing and all did this work for free. 
 

 
  This is indeed not nice. But I guess the developers are so mature that they did know what they are doing from the beginning.


Mike Kopack

Posts 268
19 May 2020 13:22


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Andy Hearn wrote:

  whats the "killer app" that 3.1.4 brings to the table
 

 
  well mostly you support companies which use your money to file lawsuits to kill companies developing for Amiga...

I think you are confusing Hyperion with Cloanto...



Andy Hearn

Posts 302
19 May 2020 13:24


That sucks the guys that did the work not getting paid for it. I didn't know that.
I've seen it before when dev guys get screwed over - can end up with "this is my thing that i made, i'm taking it away till i get paid." or "i'll sell it somewhere else". I've also seen it get locked away meaning that there's no further progression that ANYONE can make

At least, it could mean that people are possibly not going to get involved with 3.2, as there is an issue of trust that may not get honoured - or just do it for the love.
So again, we could be stuck in limbo as much as there can be "talk" of 3.2, that's all it may be, as whoever has the rights has not proven themselves, or some guys slog their guts out "for the love", only for it to be sold by the rights holders later anyway.

i don't know.

I was so pleased that 3.1.4 was even a "thing", as it meant that some people somewhere thought it was worth the time, and effort to make things better - even after all these years. basically make a rom core that doesn't need "setpatch" was my understanding.

what we're seeing now is our current massive software platform base built on the foundation of 3.1 - does 3.1.4 make life more stable with less patch requirements? 3.5 and 3.9 are tweaked setpatch rom loader files and an extra reboot from cold start, blah blah blah - and yes, a lot of tinsel and glitter on top. but that's going to be there with all fully fleshed out workbench installs.

I'll be there to wave the banner for AROS, but i grew up with AOS. However, I'll support anyone as much as i can who wants to do something to make amiga life better.


Peeri the Sunlight

Posts 42
19 May 2020 13:31


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  The company selling OS 3.1.4 went nearly bankrupt before and some people say it the company might go bankrupt in the future?
  What will then happen to all the development put into OS 3.1.4?
  Will it be Open Source? No
  Or will OS 3.1.4 "die" and get lost again when this company goes bankrupt again?

One possibility is if the case is bankrupt, we can as commonity or you (apollo/vampire team) can buy OS 3.1 rights from the bankrupty holder. Then we can try to unite with team behind 3.9 or take the control to our own hands. Anyway it is bankrupty authority task to gather much as possible money for the bankrupty (own pokets). And rights are one thing what have some value.


Manfred Bergmann

Posts 182
19 May 2020 13:35


Andy Hearn wrote:

  That sucks the guys that did the work not getting paid for it. I didn't know that.
  I've seen it before when dev guys get screwed over - can end up with "this is my thing that i made, i'm taking it away till i get paid." or "i'll sell it somewhere else". I've also seen it get locked away meaning that there's no further progression that ANYONE can make
 

 
  I believe the guys, Thomas Richter et al. did know exactly what would happen.
  At least they are very active on amiga.org forum and giving support for 3.1.4.
  If they were pissed with how this went we would have heard about it.


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
19 May 2020 13:50


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

8><----   
     
  Who wants today an Amiga which is not able to browse the internet, who want an AMIGA which is not able to open JPEG, or PNG graphic files?
  Who does not want to play MP3?
  Who does not want to use a big CF or big harddrive?
   
   
  Of course everybody wants this
  In fact actually today people want more than this.
  People will want a Workbench with Truecolor support,
  people will want more useful tools like PFD viewer, like a good Text Editor, like MPEG videoplayer.
  People today actually want a system coming preinstalled with many tools very much like Coffin.
  The people behind Coffin don't get any credit and no money but they actually want to provide to the Amiga users what the users today want and need.
 
---><8

I think we established there are different types of users out there. You can not assume every Amiga user browses the web or listens to mp3 on the Amiga. No matter how you patch the Amiga, the browsing experience sucks compared even to something running on Raspberry Pi, not to mention the phone everyone has in their pocket at all times..
I think there are plenty of people who prefer a slimmed down WB to run some old favorite apps like Dpaint, Protracker, play some games, watch demos.. etc.
Lets not simply assume every Amiga user has the same needs.
Personally I did use OS3.9 for some years but, the concept of a "ouit of the box" ready OS works better if all the stuff they put ontop is also continuously updated in some easy way.

Also I think it was mentioned that the licensing situation surrounding 3.5 or 3.9 was such a mess that the couldn't have used that as a starting point.

I'm also opposed to money from sales not benefiting devs but at the same time, I'm still hoping the situation between Cloanto and Hyperion will some day be resolved one way or another and then the benefits of updated code (to 3.2) will bring something useful to the community, not just a bad vibe.

Personally I wish OS3.2 can be the baseline for all Amigas, whereas AROS would be the High End option with all bells and  whistles for the more active Amiga users.




Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4796
19 May 2020 15:19


Daniel Sevo wrote:

I think we established there are different types of users out there. You can not assume every Amiga user browses the web or listens to mp3 on the Amiga. No matter how you patch the Amiga, the browsing experience sucks ..

You are aware that OS3.5 did came out 21 years?
And OS 3.9 came out 20 years?

Of course the internet did change in the last 21 years.
When OS 3.5 came out the Amiga browser were OK.




Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 41
19 May 2020 15:27


Daniel Sevo wrote:

 
  I'm also opposed to money from sales not benefiting devs but at the same time, I'm still hoping the situation between Cloanto and Hyperion will some day be resolved one way or another and then the benefits of updated code (to 3.2) will bring something useful to the community, not just a bad vibe.
 
 

 
  The money from sales is feeding the Leviathan, so I wouldn't expect to see any situation being resolved.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4796
19 May 2020 15:30


Manfred Bergmann wrote:

I believe the guys, Thomas Richter et al. did know exactly what would happen.

 
 
I agree and I wonder if there is a reason why they did not get money or not wanted money.
 
My personal believe is that the ownership of AMIGA OS got lost long ago.

I personally have never seen any convincing proof that  Hyperion owns it.
And we asked Hyperion before we do business to give us proof - which Hyperion did not do.

 
My personal assumption is that the coders of OS 3.1.4 work for free on abandon ware.
I think this is exactly the same situation as the maintainer of Coffin do.
 
Both are in my opinion on same level here.
Both maintain abandon ware and both do it for the love to Amiga and not for the money.
 
My interpretation of the situation is that Hyperion just has the guts and the cheekiness to sell Abandon Ware which they not own.
 
My believe is that OS 3.1.4 is technically illegal.
But as Commodore is dead there is no one complaining.
 
One could wonder not if the OS 3.1.4 devs on purpose not took any $$
  because they not wanted to get involved in any such illegal liabilities.


Markus B

Posts 191
19 May 2020 16:15


I agree with you here, Gunnar.
And even if the legal situation would be resolved somehow, it' still a very unpleasent approach.

- AROS is progressing nicely but is also limited in resources
- AmigaOS 3.x is partly cleaned up, lacking resources
- AmigaOS 4.x is more or less dead
- MorphOS is just doing their thing

So ideally AmigaOS would become open source and they could bundle interested parties to progress on a common code basis.

I don't see how this gets better at any point, given the fact that there is struggle ever since Commodore collapsed.


Manfred Bergmann

Posts 182
19 May 2020 16:28


But after all the thing is this.
 
  People have bought the stuff. Maybe more than should have happened and maybe this is all under questionable circumstances.
  But eventually this is not important.
 
  People have bought it, because it seems like the legal and official way forward to OS updates.
  Which obstacles are involved should not be the concern of the people who were happy to see this and bought it.
 
  But certainly the Vampire has to work with those ROMs and updates.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4796
19 May 2020 16:38


Peeri the Sunlight wrote:

  One possibility is if the case is bankrupt, we can as commonity or you (apollo/vampire team) can buy OS 3.1 rights from the bankrupty holder.

 
But this assumes that Hyperion legally owns it.
I doubt this is actually the case.
At least Hyperion was never able or willing to proof this to us to make business. So even for the chance to get a lot money from us - they were not able to provide a proof.
 
And I wonder if a bankruptcy holder is able to "proof" the legal owning of Hyperion of OS 3.1 and therefore can legal offer it.


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
19 May 2020 18:11


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
  My interpretation of the situation is that Hyperion just has the guts and the cheekiness to sell Abandon Ware which they not own.
 
  My believe is that OS 3.1.4 is technically illegal.
  But as Commodore is dead there is no one complaining.
 
  One could wonder not if the OS 3.1.4 devs on purpose not took any $$
    because they not wanted to get involved in any such illegal liabilities.

Supposedly the settlement of 2009 between Amiga Inc and Hyperion resulted in a perpetual license (for Hyperion) for OS 3.x and 4.x and any future developments.
The ongoing lawsuit between Cloanto and Hypoerion is supposed to reach some kind of closure in August this year?
Then we'll hopefully see if the claims hold true..



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