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Questions and Answers for AMIGA Workbench or Coffin

3.1.4 Rom ... What Are the Benefits?page  1 2 3 4 

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4844
23 May 2020 09:17


Hi Mike
 
thanks for your view.
I agree in many of your points.
 
Michael AMike wrote:

Who then paid for certain parts of the upcoming OS parts- e.g. Reaction?

In the big picture this was certainly small investment.
This is also no money invested into development but only a "piece" bought which also hinders competitions e.g. hurts Cloanto and others. But this is my personal view.
 
 
To the whole rest that you wrote, I can tell you that I agree with you to 100%. There will always be sharks and vultures that will try to milk the fans and brand.
 
And exactly that is the reason for my team and me to find a way to be independent from Sharks and vultures.
 
I believe that to revive the Amiga we need:
1) the 68K CPU  (Because the fun of coding 68K is for me a integral part of the Amiga feeling)
2) the Amiga Chipset (Because the elegance and cleverness of the chipset was for me what made Amiga to Amiga.)
3) an AmigaOS that allows it be extended and improved to meet the wishes and demands of its users and which can not "blocked" or "limited" by vulture companies.
 
1) and 2) we have reached and developed in the last 12 years.
3) if there would have been to opportunity to work with a trustworthy company to work together and reach this OS goal - then we would have love to go this way.
You all know this is not the case, therefore the only sensible decision for me is AROS - even if this means for is a longer way with a lot works effort.
 
My goal is to revive the Amiga.
And I have this goal since the 90th when Commodore died.
This is for me the reason to go my own way and not make Amiga again depending on vulture companies.

AROS is certainly not the easy solution.
Aroso is a hard work challenge for our team.
And our team also has to do some sacrifices here.
Using the perfectly polished Coffin would of course be a much easier way, than going the long stony road and having to do all debug and improving of AROS now.

And I'm every day glad, to know that people help us - even if this is a sacrifice and extra work for them.



Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 180
23 May 2020 11:06


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

  he only explained why he finally chose Aros and not 3.X as future main platform for vampire
 

  Which was a very good choice, in my opinion, not only because it solves the legal problem, but also it gave AROS a push it needed to come out of the stasis before (especially the 68k Version) Now at least it feels like it happens something in AROS.

It also won't stagnate as badly as AOS.  WhenI look at the proposed feature list for 3.2, i find myself looking at my OS 3.9 CD and asking "Didn't we have much of this already?".

AROS is even more complete than 3.9.  And it is open source to boot.  Meaning we can all contribute fixes and enhancements without having to make a deal with the devil (signing a contract with a company you might have philosophical differences with).

Yeah it is clear that AROS isn't as lean and speedy as our beloved WB3.X but there is for sure potential to exploit!


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
23 May 2020 14:48


Ronnie Beck wrote:

 
Gernt Gerloff wrote:

 
Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

    he only explained why he finally chose Aros and not 3.X as future main platform for vampire
   

    Which was a very good choice, in my opinion, not only because it solves the legal problem, but also it gave AROS a push it needed to come out of the stasis before (especially the 68k Version) Now at least it feels like it happens something in AROS.
 

 
  It also won't stagnate as badly as AOS.  WhenI look at the proposed feature list for 3.2, i find myself looking at my OS 3.9 CD and asking "Didn't we have much of this already?".
 
  AROS is even more complete than 3.9.  And it is open source to boot.  Meaning we can all contribute fixes and enhancements without having to make a deal with the devil (signing a contract with a company you might have philosophical differences with).
 
  Yeah it is clear that AROS isn't as lean and speedy as our beloved WB3.X but there is for sure potential to exploit!
 

 
  If they had the 3.9 sources available and could legally use them I'm sure they would. I don't think they are doing it from 3.1 "because its so much fun to reinvent the wheel".
  You're saying what you need, they are telling you what they got. They are recreating some stuff from the only codebase available to them so that they will have a new base to move forward from.
  + there will be some improvements that aren't in 3.9 (Texteditors, Shell etc). As I mentioned earlier. 3.2 is not trying to be the new 3.9. its trying to be the new 3.1
"Power users" who want to surf the web, watch Riva videos etc on their Amiga are probably better off with AROS IMO.
 


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 180
23 May 2020 15:17


Daniel Sevo wrote:

Ronnie Beck wrote:

    It also won't stagnate as badly as AOS.  When I look at the proposed feature list for 3.2, i find myself looking at my OS 3.9 CD and asking "Didn't we have much of this already?".
 

  You're saying what you need, they are telling you what they got. They are recreating some stuff from the only codebase available to them so that they will have a new base to move forward from.

Nope. I didn't say that all.

Daniel Sevo wrote:

If they had the 3.9 sources available and could legally use them..........

Look at who is credited with writing 3.9 and who is working on 3.1.4/3.2.  They have the source code.  Legal usage.........I wonder if that is even a consideration.  :-)


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
23 May 2020 16:28


Ronnie Beck wrote:

8><----
  Look at who is credited with writing 3.9 and who is working on 3.1.4/3.2.  They have the source code.  Legal usage.........I wonder if that is even a consideration.  :-)

As you know, it doesn't mean a whole lot who the coders were.. They don't want to get dragged into any legal issues by using code they happen to have on their hard drive from another contract...
AFAIK, Hyperion got the rights to 3.1 sources from Amiga Inc after the famous settlement. OS 3.5 and 3.9 source code never officially left Haage & Partner? (If it did I don't even know where..) I'm sure that if it was easy to obtain  - (what from their perspective is considered legal) - the 3.9 sources, they would have... Situation is what it is.. Far from ideal, but the devs seems excited to bring is some nice updates. There's a long thread on EAB where devs regularly talk to people.




Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4844
23 May 2020 17:01


Daniel Sevo wrote:

but the devs seems excited to bring is some nice updates.

A download update of 3.2 would not cost any one a penny.
So are these free updates?




Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
23 May 2020 17:18


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
Daniel Sevo wrote:

  but the devs seems excited to bring is some nice updates.
 

 
  A download update of 3.2 would not cost any one a penny.
  So are these free updates?
 

 
 
  Not sure I understand what you mean, but obviously, no one is going to force anyone to buy anything, so its not a problem for those who don't want to pay a penny.
  If one prefers to asssemble their own ultimate WB experience by downloading free stuff from Aminet then just ignore 3.2 and be happy.. :-)
  The way I understand this update (and there is no official feature list set in stone yet, so things can change) but there will be new stuff that you can't really download "for free" but it is likely that if you have the time you can find "good enough" replacement software for whatever will be in 3.2, yea..
I have no info about how this is going to be distributed, but I'm *guessing* its going to be a payed upgrade like 3.1.4 was. 
 
   
 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4844
23 May 2020 17:48


Daniel,
 
I see no reason why the bugfix/update 3.2 should not be a free update? They surely do this only in the interest of Amiga people?



M Rickan

Posts 174
23 May 2020 18:03


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

I realized that my vision for future of Amiga is very different.

I think it's fair to say that Hyperion has a problem with both vision and execution  - their main focus is clearly litigation.

"Hyperion Entertainment CVBA wants to send kudos to the entire Amiga commmunity for making AmigaOS the success it is. Thanks guys!"

What a joke.


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
23 May 2020 18:40


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Daniel,
 
  I see no reason why the bugfix/update 3.2 should not be a free update? They surely do this only in the interest of Amiga people?
 

@Gunnar, here you are making an assumption that its only bug fixes. Its not just that - if it was they probably wouldn't call it 3.2.
At least not accordning to one dev that said this very recently over at EAB:

"AmigaOS 3.2 is absolutely fantastic. And you are all going to like it. It has tons of improvements all over the place. It is definately a game changer.

3.2 is no minor fix or small update."

Its an interesting claim, we'll have to wait and see what exactly it means, but that is not the words I would use to describe some bug fixes. ;-)


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 180
23 May 2020 18:42


Daniel Sevo wrote:

Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    A download update of 3.2 would not cost any one a penny.
    So are these free updates?
 

 
 
  Not sure I understand what you mean....

It is pretty clear what Gunnar means.

Daniel Sevo wrote:

As you know, it doesn't mean a whole lot who the coders were..

As you know, when it comes to the suggestion that they don't have access to the source......yeah it does mean.  Those who wrote the code, have it.

Daniel Sevo wrote:

OS 3.5 and 3.9 source code never officially left Haage & Partner? (If it did I don't even know where..)

There was an official ceremony last month.  There was a marching band and all.  People wearing Haage & Partner uniforms marched throw the front doors holding floppy disks with the words "SOURCE CODE" in big letters.  The last of them was a guy holding a sign which read "But don't tell Daniel Sevo".  Sorry, we would have informed you, but the sign said.......


Manfred Bergmann

Posts 182
23 May 2020 19:03


Ronnie Beck wrote:

 
Daniel Sevo wrote:

  As you know, it doesn't mean a whole lot who the coders were..
 

 
  As you know, when it comes to the suggestion that they don't have access to the source......yeah it does mean.  Those who wrote the code, have it.

What are you implying?
I did try to get some Amiga source code from someone whi at the time made a commercial product.
He said he'd need to burry it from his Amigas in the cellar.
I've pushed over some years, but then I dropped it, because obviously this guy didn't want to.
So, there is nothing you can do.
 
Ronnie Beck wrote:

 
Daniel Sevo wrote:

  OS 3.5 and 3.9 source code never officially left Haage & Partner? (If it did I don't even know where..)
 

 
  There was an official ceremony last month.  There was a marching band and all.  People wearing Haage & Partner uniforms marched throw the front doors holding floppy disks with the words "SOURCE CODE" in big letters.  The last of them was a guy holding a sign which read "But don't tell Daniel Sevo".  Sorry, we would have informed you, but the sign said.......

Very funny.
I'm looking forward to 3.2, whatever it might be.
Put me on that sign as well.


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 180
23 May 2020 19:24


Manfred Bergmann wrote:

 
Ronnie Beck wrote:

  ....Those who wrote the code, have it.
 

  What are you implying?
 

 
  Keeping copies of one's work is a very common place.  Even if it isn't strictly legal/ethical.  We don't need to read an official statement from H&P to know it is possible for the code to leave by unofficial routes.  For all we know, the programmers were allowed to retain rights over the software they wrote.
 
  But all of this is besides the point.  You can anyway write new code if that feature/function is that important.  Yes, you are allowed to re-invent the wheel if you need to.  And previous source code isn't needed for that.
 
  My point is, there are many aspects of 3.1.4/3.2 which we had in WB 3.9.  If you have WB3.9 already, there will be very few benefits in 3.1.4.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 647
23 May 2020 20:06


As far as I know there were licensed parts in 3.5/3.9 who got back to the authors and were integrated in 4.X line late and there are parts that were exclusively copyrighted H&P

Additional over the years there were lots of patches that were more or less official and widely used.

Thomas R. wants to make a kind of Super-3.1 unfying all that in one legacy platform. That is what I could understand. I could even understand if he says he is only helping Hyperion because it is the only source to make something with 3.1. What I not understand is his aversion against open source helping someone making easy money with his work and at the same time saying if f.e. 3.1 would become open source he would leave. That is a very strange attitude, at least for me.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 647
23 May 2020 20:15


it is in any case milking the 68k market to make some easy bucks exploiting people who are working for free.
 
  But it is not new there, the same happened on the 4.X line too
 
  There is no concept there, no business model and no vision behind.
 
  Why should anyone buy expensive PPC hardware? What are the advantages, the USPs (to use a phrase from marketing) compared to competition? What are the differences to other platforms?
 
  If you cannot name a few you have big problems. Milking the work of volunteers (even if these people are aware of it and do it intentionally) is no replacement for a concept. There is none.
 
  now 3.2 as a new paid update... this concept we know of the 4.X line already... let the people pay for everything. Next will be 3.3 propably, again "sensational" and paid update. I am excited to see how long this will work. On the 4.X line it no longer works already.
 
  But it is up to the users if they are willing to follow it or not. We will see.


Michael AMike

Posts 134
23 May 2020 20:58


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

    Why should anyone buy expensive PPC hardware?

Because they have no manpower to switch to another cpu architecture. That's a dead end and they know it so they milk the cow as long as they can. MOS is on the way to AMD and I think OS4 can't follow.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
24 May 2020 12:16


Michael AMike wrote:

    Because they have no manpower to switch to another cpu architecture. That's a dead end and they know it so they milk the cow as long as they can. MOS is on the way to AMD and I think OS4 can't follow.
   

   
    I dont believe MOS team is way bigger then OS4 ones plus third parties involved. Its more consciousness decision to stick to it.
   
    From user POV, as I did buy A1-x1000, it was users wish to support AmigaOS development. Sadly, hardware sales did not translate to much software development, so such "closed market approached" did not bare results. It even created more trouble since OS4 did not fully support SAM460 (onboard SATA, FPGA), x1000 (ethernet, 3D for card that was sold with it, 64 bit dual core CPU, up to 8GB RAM, bad CFE decision and loss of sources that prevents its updating ...) similarly even top and current x5000, Tabor.
 
  Even today I find dubious why e.g. x1000 was designed in way it is, if it was not ment to be fully supported by OS4, even at that time was promoted as "Amiga dream machine tailored for best OS4 experience". A high clocked single core machine with soldered supported GPU and 2GB RAM onboard could be cheap SAM440 like solution that worked. It just needed a bit more availability. Seems idea was to milk users "on few fronts".
 
      Somewhat, AmigaOS remained underdeveloped and always in beta. As example OS 4.2 was announced with A1-x1000 and even extra prepaid by buyers, not to appear to this day. So I see problem on developers side, not users. Users would support what is available. In similar manner, people buy OS 3.1.4 because its available (and want to support development), not because its superior.
   
    Vampire seems to be way "better" hardware in Amiga aspect (as finally there is chipset to be banged) but again, AmigaOS needs to catch up.


Michael AMike

Posts 134
24 May 2020 17:11


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

   
    I dont believe MOS team is way bigger then OS4 ones plus third parties involved. Its more consciousness decision to stick to it.
   

I don't know if they are bigger but's obvious that they work way more focused on their project and ignore the naysayers. They make no big promises, but usually exceed the expectations of the users. What also helps is that they have very talented people in their team. Till the Timberwolf debacle I was more in AmigaOS - but since that I use only MOS on my PowerMac. At the last Amigashow in Neuss they show a very first bootup on a AMD machine.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
24 May 2020 21:02


I agree MorphOS team has "lot more deeds, much less talk".
 
  Beside very nice OS features, bundled app list is impressive.
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Real candidate for serious OS, and definite AMD edit. buyer.

Its interesting that beside the MOS team code, team acknowledges use of AROS code:

AROS
for providing the source base of various components, including but not limited to DOS, Intuition, GadTools, Locale, Commodities.

MOS Team - about us page EXTERNAL LINK


Marcus Gerards

Posts 58
28 May 2020 11:32


This thread contains a lot of assumptions and speculations. A few are debatable (but not with everyone, because the outcome will be clear), others are plain wrong.

OS3.1.4(.1) is not a "collection of fixes" to "poke at the market". The latter can be said about the 3.1 ROMs released by Hyperion a few years ago.

a) If you really want to know what OS3.1.4 includes, you'll have to read the release notes which we submitted to Hyperion. You can find them on their website. Decide for yourself whether you need it or not - *after reading*. Short version: If you only play games (which is ok), you won't need it. Use AROS or a legal 3.9.

b) Most of you know nothing about OS3.2, because you're not beta testers. Wait until it's been released and then repeat a). In the meantime, enjoy AROS or whatever, but stop throwing shit after other people's labor of love.

c) Gunnar has a company and he gets paid for every V4 (or whatever core) you're buying. Hyperion is a company and gets paid for every OS license you buy. Both is ok. And yes, we as OS developers chose not to get paid for our contribution. Which should be ok, too.

@Gunnar: Reading this thread, I don't see you ever going to appreciate any of mine or other's attempts at reconciling developers, user bases or even companies. So I'll stop that for the time being and wish you best of luck and success with your work and your products.


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