Overview Features Instructions Performance Forum Downloads Products OrderV4 Reseller Contact

Welcome to the Apollo Forum

This forum is for people interested in the APOLLO CPU.
Please read the forum usage manual.



All TopicsNewsPerformanceGamesDemosApolloVampireAROSWorkbenchATARIReleases
Questions and Answers for AMIGA Workbench or Coffin

Update Option In Coffinpage  1 2 3 

Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
27 Apr 2018 11:33


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

  It is still sold commercially (even if rewritten at least partly or complete). There was a clear No by copyright owner to include it somewhere
 

 
  Yes, its a big piece of software, that used to have a high value back in 90s. But I dont see it being actively sold, or an updated alas I remember it being promised to be OS4 native or so.
 
 
Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

  So simply believe me Vojin Coffin IS illegal

True, but like you have mentioned, its state of Amiga software that makes task difficult or impossible. Its easier when there are less s/w to include or its more recent date where contacts are current.
 
 
Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

  you can say nobodys sales are harmed because noone today is actively developing and selling 68k software anymore but this has nothing to do with the question of the legal status.
 

 
  To me product not developed and not sold is abandoned *esp. if this is true for decade or more, and thus can be freely distributed. I do know IP laws say differently, but I have never heard of Adobe suing anyone for using Photoshop 5.0 these days. Or Microsoft for use of Windows 95. Even in emulation box it should be a purchased copy, by these strict legal terms.
 
 
Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:
  Amikit special version would be a different question. Then it would be responsibility of the person behind it to care about legallity.

 
  Agreed. Your Vision AROS + Vamp optimizations, or/and AmiKit X + Vamp new thingies should be a proper way to go.
 
  Then on top users can add whatever they legally own.


Gernt Gerloff

Posts 49
27 Apr 2018 11:45


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

    It is still sold commercially (even if rewritten at least partly or complete). There was a clear No by copyright owner to include it somewhere
 

 
  Yes, its a big piece of software, that used to have a high value back in 90s. But I dont see it being actively sold, or an updated alas I remember it being promised to be OS4 native or so.
 
   
Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

    So simply believe me Vojin Coffin IS illegal
 

 
  True, but like you have mentioned, its state of Amiga software that makes task difficult or impossible. Its easier when there are less s/w to include or its more recent date where contacts are

Because itís difficult itís ok to just forget it and move on?
Working is difficult, tell that your boss, so you will not come again just get the money.

Cinema 4d sold at
EXTERNAL LINK


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
27 Apr 2018 11:52


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

        Because itís difficult itís ok to just forget it and move on?
        Working is difficult, tell that your boss, so you will not come again just get the money. 

     
      as user, when OS4/MOS evolution started, I have tried contacting various companies and indviduals that did developemnt in past to see how many are interested in "revival" It was difficult in early decade, now its possible only via private hunt on social networks.
     
      Its nearly impossible, and many times past authors mostly arent interested at all. Some of them remembered to at least give it away for free (like most recent Aweb) and very few have left option to sell (e.g. MUI key).
     
      Boss-Worker relationship has nothing to do with it.
   
      I do understand high value of legality, written agreements, IP protection etc. in your mindset, but Amiga scene isn`t good example.
   
    It lacks both active development to be really *evil pirated and real companies protecting IP, having all products on sale etc.
   
    This is more like "collection of great memories" e.g. best off LP of some long vanished band whose distribution house legally died.
   
       
Gernt Gerloff wrote:

        Cinema 4d sold at
        EXTERNAL LINK       

     
      I dont see AmigaOS version on sale at Maxon website, like e.g. one can purchase PageStream AmigaOS at Grasshoppers. I dont even see historical mention of it. Similar is with e.g. Real3D and Imagine.
     
      That is to me, a clear indication of abandonware by company. I see it this way: if company does not provide legal way of selling its product, it does encourage "piracy".
 
  If you wish side-by-side comparison I see a lot of MS-DOS, Win 3.x, Win 95, Atari and MacOS software availiable at depots on Internet, labeled as abandoned and not hunted down by their 90s IP holders (since they have moved on to new products), I see this kind of drama in Amiga community.
   
    In real life cases, like UN embargo to Cuba or Yugoslavia,Iron Curtain restrictions, software piracy is completely reasonable way of obtaining software since there is no legal offer.

Howver, to keep things simple and clean, I do argue AmiKit X for Vampire would be a win-win solution and would gladly pay 20-30e for it to Jan.


Gernt Gerloff

Posts 49
27 Apr 2018 12:46


Under that premises I can only warn every coder to develop something for Amiga or Vampire, it gets stolen and published just because itís too difficult to find out your email and ask for permit.


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 493
27 Apr 2018 12:46


We can have different vision about it, and the fact that Coffin is not a product sold but a free download surely helps to keep it in relatively "safe" position. But some "vampire hater" colud see it as a way to sell more cards, so attoney's could be near the angle, waiting to stab apollo team from behind. I think Olaf has the point here. It's a potential weapon to use against the work of the team.
Amikit X for Vampire would be a perfect solution.


Paul the Tall

Posts 6
27 Apr 2018 13:11


awesome!


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
27 Apr 2018 13:12


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

  Under that premises I can only warn every coder to develop something for Amiga or Vampire, it gets stolen and published just because itís too difficult to find out your email and ask for permit.
 

 
  Surely, it happens that way.
 
  *STOLEN
  * PUBLISHED
 
  You made me a good laugh.
 
  And I find very sad when companies like Maxon dont even mention their product was developed on Amigas.

Its also interesting who would you warn, since most of today developers offer their developments free or using shareware/PD model.



Gernt Gerloff

Posts 49
27 Apr 2018 13:58


Oh oh what should I say, maybe you should read this:
EXTERNAL LINK 
Especially the first sentence:

While the files on Aminet are freely downloadable, they are not neccessarily freely distributable...


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
27 Apr 2018 15:43


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

    While the files on Aminet are freely downloadable, they are not neccessarily freely distributable...
 

 
  Too bad I do see Internet as method of distribution.
 
  And I dont understand (as user) why would any author be against re-distribution of free/shareware/PD software. There is no better sweetness then becoming part of an distribution.
 
  To be honest, Tryware/Shareware model is best in my eyes. See it, feel it, pay to get advanced version, no adverts etc.
 
  People should test software, not just read marketing (feat. list).
 
  In similar way, Amiga piracy dubbed as Killer helped a lot of people to get insight, learn software that was often too expensive / learn what it is an then buy it later. Other method of spread is simply lowering the price, but that became practical in this Internet era.
 
  This is all for personal use. Legal entities like companies, professional services, schools etc. should include cost of software in the bussiness model and they should be hunted for ilegal software use.

I also forgot to mention SUPPORT OF PRODUCT. I highly value Turbo Print is not only purchasable (even for ridicilous price for today) but updates are availiable online by makers or Idruna at least has in deep website pocket section where Amiga users can download what was latest.

I dont see that on Maxon website, Real 3D website etc. which is another indicate company sees no value and has practicly abandoned its former AmigaOS related product. Even I have some vague rememberance of Amiga Forever SE and new Real 3D promised for AmigaOS4 in early days (as well as Matrox 2D drivers) that is just a memory in long history of post-CBM madness.


Gernt Gerloff

Posts 49
27 Apr 2018 16:10


You still dont get it the coder gave aminet the right to distribute it but that does not mean he gave everyone the right to do that
 
  I donít understand a lot of things people smoking or killing other people, still it happens.
 
  There could be a lot of reasons to not distribute it. But mostly itís just that there is no statement about, because the coder did not thought about it or even donít care, but still the default is that itís not allowed. And come on how hard is it to drop an email, the most will certainly agree.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
27 Apr 2018 16:23


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

  You still dont get it the coder gave aminet the right to distribute it but that does not mean he gave everyone the right to do that
 

 
  Yes I do get their restriction, but I believe its dumb since people will download it and trade it amongst themselves.
 
  If I was a coder I would be proud my product is used 30+ years after being made and 10 years or more after I stopped selling/supporting it. If I wanted to earn money on it today it would be fair to at least ofer bugfixing and small improvements.
 
 
Gernt Gerloff wrote:

 
    I donít understand a lot of things people smoking or killing other people, still it happens.
 

 
  You could if you would think more of it. I do smoke, but it simply an nicotine addiction with ignoring tobacco and tar negative effects. If other methods of taking it were cheaper, I suppose I wouldnt smoke. Simple fact of life is that it is legal just because alongside alcohol provides a lot of finances.
 
  With humans killing is far more complex then for food or in protection, but other then two inherited factors and some small scale conflicts, on social scale of wars is simply greed for power and control where human lives are "side effect to be ignored".

Both legality of wars and tobbaco are facts, but it doesnt make them right.
 
 

    There could be a lot of reasons to not distribute it. But mostly itís just that there is no statement about, because the coder did not thought about it or even donít care, but still the default is that itís not allowed. And come on how hard is it to drop an email, the most will certainly agree.
 

 
  Try it for software made before 2000 and you will see.
 
  While overally your attitude is right and proper to the coders efforts, in Amigaland everything is far more complex.


Gernt Gerloff

Posts 49
27 Apr 2018 16:36


Itís easy... if no answer it means you should not distribute it.

Please cherish the work of the coder, he/she use many many hours to write that stuff but for you itís too much work to write an email or search for current address

And letís say so, you are allowed to use the stuff on aminet. Maybe one could search for alternatives or even be creative. E.g.
Just make an installer which downloads the programs from aminet or the peopleís homepage, that would be allowed. Like Grunch is doing on MorphOS. But nah too much work, the coders work does not worth so much trouble and I have a perfect excuse for myself that I did not reach the coder, even I didnít try.

Nice to see how much the Coders work is worth.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
27 Apr 2018 17:19


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

  Nice to see how much the Coders work is worth.

Its very much appriciated. However, simple update, last compile dates etc. indicate its them who abandoned product and thus its users and payers. In this case. Do NOT generalize it.

I very much appriciate those who have left their work "to be continued" (on GitHub and such) where Amiga still gives related software results.

Also, those who have continued. And as you said, those who have built Grunch, AmiUpdate, AmiKit Updater etc. Idiotic Package Manager once it starts working.

Such attitude exactly stops from e.g. someone giving legal server to Coffin or is presented in Amiga Inc / Hyperion legal IP defense wars.

And that is something I fail to understand, since it is not reasonable. Wookies living on Endor :-)

I dont see author of Coffin as coder. Merely someones who share his personal distro, extremely nicely built. PPC Linux for AmigaOne x1000 is shared in similar fashion for serveral x1000 related reasons (main one being not really integrating x1000 kernels and cfe support to main Linux distro authors but DBY and Amiga Linux team).

I do not prefer it, even much useful. I like old school DVD clean boot clean installs.

Again, Coffin will never reach due to "Amigaland mambo jambo".

So thus, it would be nice to see AmiKit X going Vampire.


Gernt Gerloff

Posts 49
27 Apr 2018 17:55


You say you appreciate, but your actions tell different. It also means you respect the coders wish.

Let me remind of something:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries'_copyright_lengths

And also there are programs included which are released last year. The creators of CoffinOS just do not care, thatís a fact and everything else are just excuses searching for loopholes to legalise that.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
27 Apr 2018 18:05


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

    You say you appreciate, but your actions tell different. It also means you respect the coders wish.
   

   
    Really? How come I try to own every piece of Amiga software on sale, isnāt that a practical support to those who still "do the math".
   
    In your boss-worker analogy, we should still pay those who have left the work ages ago?
 
  Sidenote: WooHo! Serbia is life+70 yrs. Should start learning Hoolywood, release something, leave soon in legal vain it and nibble about it :-)
   
   
Gernt Gerloff wrote:

    And also there are programs included which are released last year. The creators of CoffinOS just do not care, thatís a fact and everything else are just excuses searching for loopholes to legalise that.

   
    That stuff is all free and its inclusion support the visibility of that software. It includes most recent 68k developments asap and that is how its got 51 release in short term.
   
    Its not excuses to legalise evil. Its trying to change something that aint good and right.
   
    And I ll stop here. Enough said from both viewpoints.
 
  and back to what is both legit, legal and right ... AmiKit X on Vampire 10 months ago, tested by pedro cotter
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  At that time it needed a little tweaks, I am eager to see how it works on neWer cores and v4 once it goes out!
 
  Published on Jun 19, 2017
  The GUI is now much faster and fluid. Responds very well.
  Birdie is working now
  Increased the SFS cache (SFS is the Amikit default file system)
  Icons converted into the OS 3.5 format (faster icon loading)
  Testing also the SAGA power saver  Tool type "NoSwitch". This puts to sleep the RTG while using the regular Amiga video output. Nice feature!


Paul the Tall

Posts 6
28 Apr 2018 11:10


Wow, this gets a bit out of hand. The amiga community should be a loving community :D There has been enough of disagreements/wars in the Top layer of the Amiga, so lets stay on course.

Coffin the product itself is awesome!!! And has so much potential, even over the basic OS3.9 itself, would be an amazing product for any High end system. Much appreciation and thanks for anyone who is developing it.

As mentioned, name could be better, more to the light instead of darkness :P I would love to see the name OS, Amiga, or Ami in it. Like AMIG-OS (Lol, Nice!) The hardware the girl, and the software, the male :) No copyright infriction anywhere here.

About the content. If there are some clear points of commerical software which are still sold commercially at a store and no I don't mean amazon  which asking $500 of a collectors item. but simply sold in Amiga shops or is still in development and sold on developers website, then yes, I would remove those specific items. To keep it legal. Of course the owners of the packages can be contacted to get permission, and there might be a normal and a paid version (pro) with those specific packages aboard when there needs to be some paid licenties. I would pay for a good product. It doesn't need to be always free. And free version would be there with most features, except commercial software. Hosting can be paid for the update server with those fees.

In short, I would love to see more of Amig-OS (if name can be changed, so much better) because it has sooooo much potential! Again love the developers :)




Sean Sk

Posts 373
29 Apr 2018 02:48


Paul The Tall wrote:

  About the content. If there are some clear points of commerical software which are still sold commercially at a store and no I don't mean amazon  which asking $500 of a collectors item. but simply sold in Amiga shops or is still in development and sold on developers website, then yes, I would remove those specific items.
 

 
  The thing to remember Paul is that the base of Coffin, OS3.9, is still being sold commercially at vesalia.de and is still owned by Haage & Partner. Just because the rights owner has lost interest in continuing development on OS3.9 does not give anyone the right to obtain it without paying for it. Until the person putting Coffin together approaches H&P and seeks permission, or buys the rights to OS3.9 itself, it is illegal to distribute and use, even if no profit is being made on Coffin.
 
 
Paul The Tall wrote:

  Wow, this gets a bit out of hand. The amiga community should be a loving community :D There has been enough of disagreements/wars in the Top layer of the Amiga, so lets stay on course.
 

 
  I don't believe that making people aware of the illegal nature of Coffin is trying to incite disagreements/wars. The fact of the matter is the Apollo Team have nothing to do with the development of Coffin and if they were seen to be encouraging it's use, it could put them in the firing line of legal action. I certainly don't want that to happen because this is an AWESOME project. So it's kind of pointless making suggestions for improvement in this forum since it will undoubtedly fall on deaf ears.
 
  If I was a moderator here I'd get rid of that Coffin forum tab and tell people to go somewhere else to discuss it.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
29 Apr 2018 06:03


sean sk wrote:
 
      The thing to remember Paul is that the base of Coffin, OS3.9, is still being sold commercially at vesalia.de and is still owned by Haage & Partner. Just because the rights owner has lost interest in continuing development on OS3.9 does not give anyone the right to obtain it without paying for it. Until the person putting Coffin together approaches H&P and seeks permission, or buys the rights to OS3.9 itself, it is illegal to distribute and use, even if no profit is being made on Coffin.
     

   
    Such thing was impossible for products like Amithlon or AmiKit, so its fruitless "what if". Most of AOS users do have OS 3.5, OS 3.9 anyway. But its quite impossible to build a "from zero" OS 3.9+Coffin extras installer - because like you say there is no one to do it with legal rights to do it. And no sources saved.
   
    Its nice OS 3.9 is on sale, so is 3.0 at Vesalia. Why dont you pay 20e for OS 3.x in emulation boxes each time when setting a new one, or using anything that uses its files (best analogy to Coffin)?
   
    I do understand legal points of it, but hey, once they do badly needed official Boing Bag 3 and can handle building new Vamp specific release, I would gladly pay new 40 euros.
   
    When there is no one to do it, I like the simple image clone.
 
  IP rights are build to protect art, books etc. but in software product becomes obsolete fast, and when fixing/development ceases becomes kind of "broken product".
 
  Chucky Egg is IP protected but simply worthless today.

Sometimes, so much "piracy!" cry sounds like Blenders Anti Piracy Warning! EXTERNAL LINK


Gernt Gerloff

Posts 49
29 Apr 2018 09:59


Thatís really funny so the still sold OS3.9 is ok to use because other people asking for agreement from the company was rejected?

Wtf a coder can do to not let coffinOS use his stuff without asking
- long time did not update - donít ask just use
- recently updated - donít ask just use
- currently sold and already said itís not allowed - donít ask just use

Hey Microsoft I want to use your windows10 in my new Dist. for free. What NO? Fine then I can just use it, the users have Windows anyway and to make an installer is too complicated, who has time for that.

*facepalm*


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1698
29 Apr 2018 10:03


Gernt Gerloff wrote:

  Thatís really funny so the still sold OS3.9 is ok to use because other people asking for agreement from the company was rejected?
 

 
  No, but because most of current Classic users already have it. I am one of rare few, but will buy one for AmiKit use (even I do have OS 3.5) and so such "legal hustlers" can shut up.
 
  And its very bad when company rejects bundled sales, shoots itself in the leg.
 

posts 47page  1 2 3