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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

Fake News:OS4 Demanded for Vampirepage  1 2 

Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
30 Aug 2017 12:15


Kresimir Lukin wrote:

Amiga can survive only open source,I will have better opinion about Hyperion if they open source 3.1

Highly unlikely, they see themselves as IP protector,
and 3.1 rights as source of retro revenue.

I am glad Vamps use OS 3.9 which doesnt give them any, since I have already bling bling them enough for what they give in return.



Kresimir Lukin

Posts 65
30 Aug 2017 14:32


I know they will never open it,the only reason why we need that open is because of aros to fix some incompatibilities faster then they will do with reverse engineering, until that we will still need 3.9 and afa what is used in amikit


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
30 Aug 2017 23:30


Kresimir Lukin wrote:

I know they will never open it,the only reason why we need that open is because of aros to fix some incompatibilities faster then they will do with reverse engineering, until that we will still need 3.9 and afa what is used in amikit

As far as I understand IDE and Gfx needs to be faster on Apollo on AROS 68k, and we are basically depending on Kalamitee there.


Wawa T

Posts 695
31 Aug 2017 20:43


m rickan wrote:
I'm not always the most supportive when it comes to Hyperion, but having them release 4.x for the Vampire would be beneficial on a number of levels.

and these benefits being?

maybe you missed on that but there was discussion about os4 port to 68k as well as on aros68k as alternative on various sites, and it clearly occures that os4 is much more resource hungry. once even ported to 68k the question is if it even was actually faster than aros in its current state.


Wawa T

Posts 695
31 Aug 2017 20:47


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  As far as I understand IDE and Gfx needs to be faster on Apollo on AROS 68k, and we are basically depending on Kalamitee there.
 

 
  there are other talented aros developers out there. even toni os one of them, just the problem is how to motivate the people. certainly the attitude, that aros is not the real thing doesnt help here. but we are not necessarily just dependant on a single person.
 
  ideally someone who knows amiga and 68k but was neither engaged with os4 and aros to date would be a good candidate.


Eric Gus

Posts 477
01 Sep 2017 06:40


wawa t wrote:

  there are other talented aros developers out there. even toni os one of them, just the problem is how to motivate the people. certainly the attitude, that aros is not the real thing doesnt help here.

I always liked AROS and I personally have often directed people towards it .. Myself I would have used AROS if I was never able to get my A3000 back up and running after some pretty ugly battery damage.. I had duped the original scsi drives using AROS .. and had it all basically ready to go .. then my miggy got better.. :-) I still have my AROS setup.. But yea there seems to be a lot of unwarranted negativity towards it ..


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
10 Sep 2017 18:10


Simo Koivukoski wrote:

                            CLICK HERE                           

                           
                            If on wildest dream, on 1st April 2018 OS 3.10 would appear, I would expect (based on some 2004 feat list) EXTERNAL LINK                         
                        ---------------
                        OS4 68k backports
                        ---------------
                          - OS 4.0 boot theme by  Susumu Hirasawa
                          - Updated Kickstart picture
                          - Ability to boot Vampire ROM
                          - Live CD feature
                          - Serbian Locale is back and 100% :-)
                          -  Backported improved Exec
                            gladly with HT and 080 support,
                            no 68k emulation needed,
                            Altivec supported changed to AMMX2
                          - OS 4.0 128mb fast optimized look and feel
                          - OS 4.1 FE 512mb fast optimized look and feel
                          - Composting fast using SAGA and AMMX2
                          - Shared libraries support
                          - Improved memory allocation and freeing
                          - Updated Intuition and Reaction and classes
                          - Improved Font engine
                          - Improved Installer
                            better then Hype solutions
                          - Improved Shell
                          - Latest SFS backported
                          - All other OS 3.9 remaining components updated to latest OS4 counterparts (Boing Bag 1!)
                          - Updated 68k SDK and Vamp optimized development tools (Boing Bag 2!)
                         
                          ----------------------------
                          Enhancer v1.3 features, based on original news
                          vwww.a-eon.com/PDF/News_Release_EnhancerSoftware.pdf
                        ------------------------------ 
                            - Even more improved shell
                            - SFS2 finally updated
                            - AmiDVD
                            - MultiEdit, Multiviewer(NG) updated!
                            - Updated TuneNet
                            - Improved Dock and X-Dock as option,
                              no CANDI needed
                            - Improved notification system and updater,
                              but not dependent on AmiStore
                            - AmiStore if they can do it
                            - Exchanger and ClipViewer
                            - New Gadget, Classess and Datatypes
                            - Few good
                              backdrops from OS4 and x1000 Linux releases
                          --------------
                        Included AEON and other Software
                        --------------- 
                            Would be great to include updated software to support SAGA and 080
                            - PFS with boot, defrag and disk doctor
                            - Registered Roadshow and latests SSL     
                            - Latest 68k Personal Paint
                            - Latest 68k Octamed
                            - Lastest 68k DvPlayer
                            - Latest ImageFX
                            - Latest Ringhio that can be turned off
                            - Latest Multiviewer and Multiviewer NG
                            - Latest Alladin 4D 
                            - Libre Office 68k Beta DEmo No SAve
                            - Turbo Print registered and included with all drivers
                            - Scanner software registered and included
                            - Amiga Writter registered and included
                            - Latest Picasso 96, MUI and AHI all Vampire optimized
                            - MESA 5.0 for SAGA included
                            - Latest Warp3D 68k backported, no RadeonHD support
                            - Latest AmiPDF, MooVID, RIVA
                            - Registered Warp Datatypes, Vamp optimized
                            - Registered Ibrowse 2.5
                            - Standardised PCI bus and USB support,
                              even 3rd party like Poseidon and pci.library
                            - Lifetime NetSurf updates subscription
                            - Other AmiKit 9 components included
                            - AmigaForever freed material included
                            - MakeCD registered
                            - Ablity to backup OS essentials
                              and original S sequence to CDR-W,DVD-RW,
                            bootable USB, SD card or LHA/LZX/ZIP
                            - Latest open sourced Dopus 4 and 5 that updates with OS
                            - Latest VaporWare Amiga software in rememberance of Oliver Wagner (Amiga IRC, VoyagerNG 3.x)
                            - Latest MetalWeb registered
                            - Latest LightWave, Imagine and VistaPro registered                               
                            - Shapeshifter included, Fusion with legal ROMs and MacOS as well as free MacOS classic software
                            - Virus Executor and XVS library included
                            - Timberwolf RC2 backported with dependencies
                            - Vampire optimized virtual box
                              running Debian4 m68k software
                            - Backporting DJ Nicks Crystal theme
                            and sounds  EXTERNAL LINK
      EXTERNAL LINK                              - Latest YAM autoupdating but with no need for monthly build to be run

-------------------------------
                       
                            For that I would give them another 30e, 40e more for all those licensed software ...
                   
                    060/UAE edition could exist, would be nice source of revenue to keep em alive. Better then Snow Maker or molded cases, while in interest of all to have updated and advanced OS install.
           
           
wawa t wrote:

            maybe you missed on that but there was discussion about os4 port to 68k as well as on aros68k as alternative on various sites, and it clearly occures that os4 is much more resource hungry. once even ported to 68k the question is if it even was actually faster than aros in its current state.
           

           
            No. It will have more transparent windows :-) Provided famous "Composting Engine" can be backported to RTG and SAGA


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
12 Sep 2017 14:30


Hi Vojin,

Your extensive list.... most of it.... I think CAN happen!!!!

That would be when, Vampire sells it's 20,000th accelerator/standalone!

I am certain that that will happen.... don't know WHEN it'll happen. :-D

(My guess? Before the end of 2020!!! :-D :-D :-D)


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
13 Sep 2017 20:33


Thierry Atheist wrote:

    Hi Vojin,
      Your extensive list.... most of it.... I think CAN happen!!!!
     
      That would be when, Vampire sells it's 20,000th accelerator/standalone!
     
      (My guess? Before the end of 2020!!! :-D :-D :-D)
   

   
    If 20 000 people out of few millions return to Amiga via Vampire, that part is done.
   
    Will high ego and time in secondary or third job of EU gentleman see it as viable, buy all needed rights and get it done?
   
    OS 4.0 For Real (Hardware) this time, it would be nice to see it doable on those high end 060 and RTG sys and in all emulation boxes a bit more updated and fixed. They have done this good and kept it A1 exclusive, killing any Mac / Other PPC try beside Acubes humble systems. I even doubt they ll do it for "better Alice" - that Italian PPC laptop - it that sees life as better try then x5000.
   
   
wawa t wrote:

      ideally someone who knows amiga and 68k but was neither engaged with os4 and aros to date would be a good candidate.
   

   
    While I love the current AROS 68k development (in just need better theme :-) I believe OS4 isnt that heavyweight. Core OS4 port as listed from 2004 would fly on SAM440 or A1 G3 with optimised 9250 or R7 driver with Warp3D and even running WarpOS apps. Take away few PPC libs its nicely updated over OS 3.9 in time, so far it offers much more out of box, especially if Enhancer parts would be alligned up to default.
   
    I generally advise Enhancert basic components port + inclusion of some updates including ExecNG for Vampire and 060 and AGA/SAGA/RTG optimised drivers (AHI, MUI5, video, composting), some visuals and composting engine turned on/off. Loved the cute basic OS 4.0 look (got Classic CD even got no Classic PPC) and even the box and the manual. Was a nice start. I ask for no advanced features like SMP, Ethernet driver or breaking 2GB barrier, 32-bit mem model is good enough for Vamps. Several licenses AEON and Hype own could really enhance the package, and even emulated envirovments in 060/RTG mode. Updated drivers and file systems are a must, at least SFS and PFS,FAT32 and NTFS if not bullshits like JXFS and NGFS, keep it in your Hype house.


Wawa T

Posts 695
13 Sep 2017 21:39


i think it goes without saying that aros has much lower memory demands than os4. probably this can be said about speed, even though os4 doesnt run on such low end hardware as aros, namely 68k. i wonder what would be the advantage of exec sg? imho os4 has nothing to offer.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
13 Sep 2017 22:38


wawa t wrote:

      doesnt run on such low end hardware as aros, namely 68k. i wonder what would be the advantage of exec sg? imho os4 has nothing to offer.
     

     
      If I understand well limited mem protection, GreamReaper instead Classic Gurus and some virtual mem over 2GB if ever used. Maybe even virtual mem to partition, if that is not in KS. Something like that ... Not much. If it can be clang to existing one with just the reaper and 2GB limit, I am okay with that. Many other components have however bumped in versions up to this Windows  ... ugh, eight release of OS 4.1 with Enhancer 1.3.
   
    Extras 3rd party pack could be much richer with licenses for existing OS 3.x software by AEON and Hyperion (sadly, as of games Hypes ofer just Freespace for 68k, nice game!).
   
    I believe OS4 Classics on Classics takes less then 50MB on boot and maybe 100-150MB on my OS 4.1.8+ 3 x Enhanced Final with Dopus 5. Which could be further optimized just by editing out many unneeded drivers every OS4 system loads - OS does not adopt to system that way at all.
 
  Beside keeping tons of small files that kill the fun without SSD, barebone system is not that big or bloated minus PPC BE conversion. Which could be further both reduced and optimized by quality 68k backporting. In fact I believe code has been cleaned and made easier to port during long process, if one of few benefits of OS4 transition.

If AROS 68k can grow, and they dont do "hot Classic enhancer" its their loss.


Dusko Kovacic

Posts 21
13 Sep 2017 23:18


wawa t wrote:

i think it goes without saying that aros has much lower memory demands than os4. probably this can be said about speed, even though os4 doesnt run on such low end hardware as aros, namely 68k. i wonder what would be the advantage of exec sg? imho os4 has nothing to offer.

I strongly believe that within the next 12 months a decent web browser with all modern web technologies will appear for aros.

but first step is definetly to get aros to work fluidly as ios on iphones.

i saw some ultra slow graphic gui performance. is that solved
in the meantime?

cant wait for the V4 standalone to get it!

like when i was waiting for my first A1200. same feeling
after all those years!  i never believed it will reappear




Wawa T

Posts 695
13 Sep 2017 23:48


@vox
 
  i dont think os4 has any more memory protection that aros has, what is grim reaper other than the classic guru, except when you feed it with a precompiled binary containing a debug symbols? on aros you would do the same and use gdb for backtrace. unfortunatelly i think it is currently broken and i have never been able to use gdb reliably with 68k but the infrastructure is there, ot lkely needs just someone more skilled than me.
 
  about the memory footprint, ill quote myself from elsewhere:
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  os4 with eyecandy and stuff (ppc) >50mb (usually people claim you cant boot workbench to less than 70mb requires)
  aros with eyecandy and stuff (68k) ~7mb
 
  os4 early startup (ppc) >7mb (other users claim 30mb
  aros early startup/boot without the s-s ~1mb
 
  wanna try to optimize more?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
14 Sep 2017 06:38


wawa t wrote:

    i dont think os4 has any more memory protection that aros has, what is grim reaper other than the classic guru, except when you feed it with a precompiled binary containing a debug symbols?
   
    os4 with eyecandy and stuff (ppc) >50mb (usually people claim you cant boot workbench to less than 70mb requires)
    aros with eyecandy and stuff (68k) ~7mb
   
    os4 early startup (ppc) >7mb (other users claim 30mb
    aros early startup/boot without the s-s ~1mb

 
  I have no doubts AROS is lighter, I am just saying OS4 is doable on Vamps thanks to raising the bar to 128/512mb.
 
  Also, I dont pretend Grim Reaper is something great. It doesnt give human readable causes of crash. It just has higher survival chance then old Gurus and enables easier crash log saving.

Dusko Kovacic wrote:

  i saw some ultra slow graphic gui performance. is that solved
  in the meantime?
  like when i was waiting for my first A1200. same feeling
  after all those years!  i never believed it will reappear

IDE and gfx performance has improved, hardware (no jerky) pointer is introduced, you can clearly feel it in latest AROS on vamp videos in AROS RTG thread.

Yes, its good Amiga has survived!


Wawa T

Posts 695
14 Sep 2017 10:12


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
It just has higher survival chance then old Gurus and enables easier crash log saving.

  im not sure either about this increased stability. also on amiga you can for instance use smart crash, which offers similar or even more functionality in this area. on aros in crash requester you are being offered that famous "more" button and option to send the log to serial.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
14 Sep 2017 15:11


wawa t wrote:

              im not sure either about this increased stability. also on amiga you can for instance use smart crash, which offers similar or even more functionality in this area. on aros in crash requester you are being offered that famous "more" button and option to send the log to serial.

         
          I am glad AROS has better crash options then soft reboot and logging - which I prefer to file on hard drive.
           
            OS4 is prone to crashes, even with is native and most recent software, as "all pieces are more glued together then consistant" (my impression). Its "one story" in where it will crash with new drivers, Enhancer apps, just an OS update that is recommended etc.
         
          When using older OS4.0 software even, it increased with OS 4.1FE+u1+Enhancer. When using OS3 apps way more, but generally its not really a stable sys. Lost much nerves to build updated but stable OS4 sys with selected apps.
           
            I have never experienced a crash on AROS in 68k virtual box or in AROS apps under AEROS I have quite abused, as great hybrid. Better then rabit holes, just need gfx look overhaul.
         
         
Dusko Kovacic wrote:

         
          I strongly believe that within the next 12 months a decent web browser with all modern web technologies will appear for aros.
         

 
  BROWSER OPTIONS AND ROUTES
    ---------------
          NOW
  ---------------
  We have older OWB on AROS 68k only   
 
        Dear Dusko, OWB has appeared in AROS RTG thread - quite usable little thinggie, HTML5 rendering.
 
  --------------- ---------------
  There is even some Mac style
  --------------- ---------------
          And yes, there is Netscape 4 or so under MacOS Classic, even IE, but that is ~HTML4.
 
  ---------------------------------------------
  There are Ibrowse and NetSurf on OS3
  --------------- --------------- ---------------
  Both are HTML 3.2 - if you can stil find those websites, maan they render faaast! Not far better then coming Ibrowse 2.5 ( I would still buy and support for Amiga style - my first window to the world using pulse tone dial).
     
      Ibrowse 2.5 FAQ you, OS3 version will be continued
      EXTERNAL LINK 

  OPTIONS
 
  ---------- --------------- ---------------
  Doomed Timberwolf is now OSS
  -------------------------------------
    I remember Igor mentioned FF port somewhere in V500 intro days and videos. Hope it can jump over FF4.0 unstable, known as TW (what connects timebrs and wolves? Hype!), even Hypes promise of FF16+
      Friedens HQ on TW  EXTERNAL LINK        Discussion on what to do with TW open source on OS4
    EXTERNAL LINK (nothing happened)     
        TW sources exist,its not bad at all in HTML5 tests, its just unfinished. I suppose OS4 backporting is easier then Linux one.
        EXTERNAL LINK 
  --------------- --------------- ---------------
  AROS x86, OS4 and MOS have ODYSSEY HTML5 
  --------------- --------------- ---------------
      Odyssey 1.23 that is used on MOS and OS4 is quite enjoyable, and currently best part of OS4 experience. kas1e had done a lot of magic, maybe an RTG/060/Vamp OS3 or AROS backport could be done.
      Kas1 web
      EXTERNAL LINK        Readme
      EXTERNAL LINK    It exists on AROS x64 and could be backported to 68k
    EXTERNAL LINK

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