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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

1080p With Vampirepage  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 

Michael AMike

Posts 130
01 Jun 2020 22:19


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
  Why are your Quake Scores for V1200 so very low?
   
 

 
  Let us  look into this to understand the differences. I think the numbers in Excel are easy to understand? The result didn't seem that far off in relation to the A4000, and the V1200 is only about 10% ahead of Warp1260 in the Jubibenchmark. Based on that the numbers it seemed valid to me. The graphic connection of the two cards is different and not comprehensible for me.
 
 
 
  Can you upload your Quake folder please to doublecheck that we use the same version for the benchmark?
  Which copyroutine do you use?
  Are you using the latest SAGA version and Apollo core from the wiki?
  Are there any SAGA options that speed up RTG and are not enabled by default? (I only use the default installation)
  P96 from the Aminet?
 
  Warp1260 was clocked at 95 megahertz. The data is from the video from chucky. He also uses Kick/WB 3.1.4.

EDIT: I made a second test and get 24PFS at 320. It seems that I made a mistake  in the first testrun. Will test again and post the new spreadsheet. Sorry, was not intended.



Michael AMike

Posts 130
01 Jun 2020 23:02


Sorry, there must have been something wrong with the first test run. The FPS are now significantly higher and the V1200 is ahead in every resolution.

Here is the new spreadsheet.
EXTERNAL LINK


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
02 Jun 2020 07:07


Michael AMike wrote:

Sorry, there must have been something wrong with the first test run. The FPS are now significantly higher and the V1200 is ahead in every resolution.
   
Here is the new spreadsheet.
EXTERNAL LINK 

 
 
All good Mike :-)
Mistakes can happen. No harm done.
 
 
 
 
I find the Warp card very good and I have deep respect for the Warp developers.
 
 
But let us make one thing clear:
 
When you compare here Warp and Vampire1200 in your benchmarks - then what you technically really do is comparing the CPU.
 
You compare in these benchmarks
a 20 year old, and very heavily overclocked 68060 chip
with the new 68080 CPU (non overclocked).
 
That Quake runs 50% faster on the Vampire does not mean Warp is a bad card.
It just means even a heavily overclocked 68060 CPU is not as fast as the 68080.
 
 
I think Vlad made a very good point regarding the over clocking of the 68060.
 
The 68060 chips are all 20 to 25 years old and worn and torn.
We can not reliable buy any 68060 chips worldwide.
The main source of 68060 are refurbished chips from china which are relabeled and you never know
if they work at all, if they include a FPU, whether they will die tomorrow or what clockrate they can reach.
 
How many of these refurbished 68060 will reach the clockrate that was used in this benchmark?
The most of them will not reach it.
 
If you know how "refurbishing" in china works then you will know that the likeliness that these chips took internal damage in the process is very high and that you will never know when they die because of this.
As an engineer this is what I find is a big problem.

Nevertheless I think the Warp is an excellent card for those people which have a spare 68060 laying around.
 


Michael AMike

Posts 130
02 Jun 2020 08:28


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

   
  You compare in these benchmarks
  a 20 year old, and very heavily overclocked 68060 chip
  with the new 68080 CPU (non overclocked).
 
 

I understand your point - but don't agree on that. ;) I've several Rev6 working on 100Mhz (A1000 GBA) so I've enough CPUs to "burn". ;) As a user I'm interested what can I use permanently on a daily base - and 95Mhz reaches every betatester - some 105Mhz.

But as I said I understand your point - that the Apollo Core is faster is no big surprise and beside "overclocking" you can also move to a faster FPGA generation. At the end a 68060 can't win the race - but it's a nice option and the Warp is a great combination fo features. I'm not a friend of: V1200 or Warp1260 - for me it's an "and".



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
02 Jun 2020 08:30


Stefano Briccolani wrote:

Stephen did a very good review of V500 on March 2018. Even in that review the ide speed was very, very low. I think he had no idea that fast-ide speed could be activated, but he just received his card, so it was OK. Even the core was one of the first with FPU. It seems to me that he didn't touched-updated his Vampire since that video. I don't know if this was a precise choice but for sure before doing a comparative video he should have downloaded latest core (there's even a public x12 for V500) and before asserting that the ide is 2.6 mb he should have asked about it (on technical notes refers to 10mbs, so it was pretty obvious that there was a problem to solve).
I like the guy, he have done very good cases.. but this comparison video seems too biased to me.

 
I agree with you.
Steve results seem all not correct.
 
If correctly installed we all get very different results than Steve.
 
Steve gets 2.4 MB/sec on IDE  - I get 12 MB/sec
 
Or lets compare the GFX results.
Steve
 
Steve claims to get 55 for overclocked Warp and 38 for Vampire
 
While I see this:

This is a result of 66 for Vampire in 800x600x8bit.
 
 
 


Markus B

Posts 189
02 Jun 2020 08:42


BTW, I'm always puzzled by the "Test Code Type".
In this case AIBB compares the A4000-40 with your result as if the A4000 executed the code as plain 68000, right?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
02 Jun 2020 08:43


Michael AMike wrote:

Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
   
  You compare in these benchmarks
  a 20 year old, and very heavily overclocked 68060 chip
  with the new 68080 CPU (non overclocked).
   
   
 

 
I understand your point - but don't agree on that. ;) I've several Rev6 working on 100Mhz (A1000 GBA) so I've enough CPUs to "burn". ;) 

I hope you understand that I was not talking about your provate stock of CPUs that you have available to burn.

Let me first explain my view so that you can agree.
Have you seen how chips are refurbished in China?

If not, maybe you check this video to get an impression?
EXTERNAL LINK 
From an engineering point of view - there is no doubt that the refurbishing process in china does structural damage many chips.

That you have a personal stock of 68060 chips is great for you.
But it is clear that if people have to buy 68060 CPU from ebay - there is a very high likelyhood that they get damaged chips or fake chips.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
02 Jun 2020 08:50


Markus B wrote:

BTW, I'm always puzzled by the "Test Code Type".
In this case AIBB compares the A4000-40 with your result as if the A4000 executed the code as plain 68000, right?

 

The comparing bars with A4000 are all nonsense in this test.
 
The reason is that AIBB includes a database of results from Amiga and resolutions.
AIBB can only compare your system if you choose an resolution which was in the database.
 
Steve selected a resolution NOT included in the AIBB database and got a warning requester - which you can see in the video.
Score of 66 instead 38!

The requester stated that AIBB will compare his results with scores of another resolution. In other words the bars all make no sense.
 
We in this test did the same as Steve and selected his 800x600 mode - just to show that if the Vampire is installed with recent driver the result is very different.
 
 
But you are absolutely right, that to be able to compare with the Amigas in the AIBB database - Steve would have needed to selected a  resolution in the database.
In other words the comparison bars, that he shows in the video are all meaningless.

While I find the idea of such videos a nice idea -
only if so many mistakes are done in the setting up the benchmarks - even a high quality video presentation of them has not much value.




Michael AMike

Posts 130
02 Jun 2020 08:52


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
  That you have a personal stock of 68060 chips is great for you.
  But it is clear that if people have to buy 68060 CPU from ebay - there is a very high likelyhood that they get damaged chips or fake chips.

I'm fully aware of the situation and I would recommend everyone to use paypal for the shoppingtrip. Same situation on 030FPU - I've bought three FPU to get one working one. That's a problem and painful - but manageable.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
02 Jun 2020 09:05


Michael AMike wrote:

I'm fully aware of the situation and I would recommend everyone to use paypal for the shoppingtrip. Same situation on 030FPU - I've bought three FPU to get one working one. That's a problem and painful - but manageable.

   
Maybe you know how computer chips are internally constructed.
There is a crystal inside them.
   
As you might know these crystals can wear out.
Overheating wears them out, over clocking wears them out.
Stress like this desoldering during the refurbishment wears them out.
   
These crystal can be damaged to not work at all,
but the most common form of damage are micro damages which not kills them directly but ages them a lot.
   
Everyone knowing the topic will tell you the same.
   
These refurbished chips from china will be extremely aged by the process.
   
Maybe if you have not much experience in chip physics - it helps you to imagine this like you bought a 30 year old used VW GOLF 1 car with 500,000 miles on the engine.
   
The engine is way over its lifetime.
   
   
This is very similar to this refurbished chips.
They are worn out by this - aged over their lifetime.
   
There is one big difference to the car.
A used car you can overhaul and repair.
This is not the case with CPU crystals.
There are millions of transistors in the chip - all of them are aged well over their lifetime. If a single one breaks the whole chip is broken.

Even if one of the three FPU you bought on ebay works for you now -
you will never know if it will die next week.
Or die the next day after your paypal protecting ends.
   
If you are aware if this - then all is good.
   


Markus B

Posts 189
02 Jun 2020 09:10


@Mike

No, this is not manageable in my view.
For me it would be impossible to solder such a CPU, maybe I would be able to source them properly. So someone would need to sell me a complete product. So maybe around 700 in total.

How many CPUs might be available at all?
Vampires have been sold in the thousands already. I doubt this could be done with 060s.


Michael AMike

Posts 130
02 Jun 2020 09:33


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
    This is very similar to this refurbished chips.
    They are worn out by this - aged over their lifetime.
     
 

 
  Then I'm one of the happy guys who had never a burned 68k CPU. There is always a risk using old hardware - with bad luck my Amiga is damaged next week. Same for the turboboards or my CPUs - there is no gurantee at all. No one is pushed to buy a CPU or a 1260 boards and I think all of us are aware of the risks and mature enough to decide if that is a high risk for themself, or not. Life is crazy dangerous....
 
  @Markus B
  So it's obvouis that you are not the target group of such turbocards - which is fine in the end. Wait for the TF1260/ ACA1260 or buy a Vampire. Quite easy choice.


Pedro Cotter
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 268
02 Jun 2020 10:01


Both great accelerators and both with its flaws and virtues.
  Now, more important to me than comparing only speed tests  is the Fun Factor of each card.
 
  Comfortability in use
  Compatibility
  Setup
  Reliability
  Expansibility
  Support
 
 
  Which one has the highest fun factor?
 
  Unfortunately i have no Warp card so i cant do such comparisons, but in the end the user wants to use a card that brings him the most joy.


Sean Sk

Posts 368
02 Jun 2020 12:24


Pedro Cotter wrote:

Which one has the highest fun factor?

 
Just like yourself, I can't comment on the Warp 1260 as I don't have one, but I can say that on the scale of 1-100, I would give my V1200 a 1000 in fun factor. :D
It's not perfect but I love it to bits.


Edvin AWalter

Posts 21
04 Jun 2020 20:32


So maybe anyone has found working 1080@24Hz to 1080@60Hz DIGITAL-VIDEO to DIGITAL-VIDEO converter?

Could something like this work?
EXTERNAL LINK


Markus B

Posts 189
04 Jun 2020 21:42


What for? The movements on the screen will still suck.

Just go for 720p60.


Roy Gillotti

Posts 417
04 Jun 2020 21:43


Edvin AWalter wrote:

    So maybe anyone has found working 1080@24Hz to 1080@60Hz DIGITAL-VIDEO to DIGITAL-VIDEO converter?
   
    Could something like this work?
    EXTERNAL LINK   

   
    I use this and it seems to convert a wide range of resolutions from the Vampire to my 720p TV without any issues... I haven't attempted 1080p 24Hz, but could try it later today or tomorrow.
   
  EXTERNAL LINK   
    I like this because it has an RGB input via SCART and can switch from the RGB and DIGITAL-VIDEO outputs with a single button. I live in the US, we don't USE SCART here, but sourced an Amiga SCART cable from Amigastore.eu
   


Edvin AWalter

Posts 21
05 Jun 2020 06:18


A4000T with Radeon 9200 is very usable at 1080p, so I think V1200 will be even better as video transfer is faster.


Edvin AWalter

Posts 21
05 Jun 2020 06:18


Roy Gillotti wrote:

  I use this and it seems to convert a wide range of resolutions from the Vampire to my 720p TV without any issues... I haven't attempted 1080p 24Hz, but could try it later today or tomorrow.
 

 
  That would be great if you can try and let me know. Thank you!


Henrich Raduska

Posts 29
06 Jun 2020 14:12


I just spent a week testing different monitors in an effort to achieve a native resolution of 1920x1080 on the V1200 DIGITAL-VIDEO output. Two of the monitors, the older SAMSUNG B2330HD and LG M2362D, are monitors equipped with a TV tuner and also have a SCART input. The third was the new modern ACER SA240Y. All monitors can display 1920x1080 / 50i from the settop box. Unfortunately, the P96 prefs interlace setting on the V1200's DIGITAL-VIDEO output has no effect on the picture. This capability seems to be missing in the driver, but maybe I'm wrong. It's a pity, the 50i supports almost every monitor today.
  Therefore, only the 1080 24p, 25p, and 30p progressive modes remain. Only LG supported such a low frequency.
  However, the tests showed an interesting feature - the monitor automatically enlarged the image when the number of lines approached 1080. At 1056 lines, the monitor detects 1920x1056 25p, but at 1920x1080 it prints only 1080p25 and displays the image so that there are about 30 invisible points on each side. This feature is also in 720p resolution. In the settings of the LG monitor, it is possible to switch the aspect ratio from 16: 9 to "just scan", which finally helped to achieve a native image of 1: 1 (with LCD panel resolution), without upscaling. Unfortunately, the "just scan" setting on the LG monitor cannot be saved, so I will test other monitors that will pass through my hands in the hope of finding the ideal monitor for the V1200.

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