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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

1080p With Vampirepage  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
27 May 2020 08:24


Vladimir Repcak wrote:

You may not have a racing game or Fps shooter, but platformer or turn-based strategy is certainly doable at 4k on V4.

The Vampire cards are designed with chips able to reach resolutions of 800x600 or 960x540 or 1280x720.

No Vampire can produce a 4K signal.
 


Eric Libert

Posts 7
27 May 2020 13:04


Hello,
 
  as long as we talk about display frequency,
  I think we should do a little update on the wiki, because it is informed that in 1280 x 720 is 60Hz (https://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/vampire:digital_video_audio). I bought my V4 based on this detail, but surprise, at 60Hz my monitor is not compatible. Luckily my wife's PC monitor accepts the signal at 50Hz. There was an exchange of monitors ;-)
  Note that the screen makes a slight flicker at 50Hz. But apart from this detail, 1280 x 720 in 32bits is great.
 
  Thank you to the team for all the work they do.
 
 


Henrich Raduska

Posts 29
27 May 2020 13:28


You must use P96Prefs and adjust pixelclock for this resolution to achieve 60Hz. It's problem of monitor definitions in OS not in V2 & V4.


Vladimir Repcak

Posts 327
27 May 2020 17:31


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Vladimir Repcak wrote:

  You may not have a racing game or Fps shooter, but platformer or turn-based strategy is certainly doable at 4k on V4.
 

 
  The Vampire cards are designed with chips able to reach resolutions of 800x600 or 960x540 or 1280x720.
 
  No Vampire can produce a 4K signal.
 

So, for gaming purposes, 1280*720 is highest possible?

But how do you get 1920*1080 in workbench then? It is still coming out of Vampire somehow.

I'm missing something here...



Markus B

Posts 189
27 May 2020 18:36


It's only available in low refresh rates.


Vladimir Repcak

Posts 327
27 May 2020 19:13


25/30 fps is surely enough for a game running at 1920*1080.
  Not sure how much screen space could be updated during vblank, though.
 
  Unless this resolution can only be activated in workbench, for some reason.
 
  Perhaps it's not supported by the RTG? And can be activated only using the system libraries used by workbench?


Roy Gillotti

Posts 417
27 May 2020 20:43


@Vladimir

It can work with RTG, the resolution would need to be setup p96 screenmode, however performance is another question.


Henrich Raduska

Posts 29
27 May 2020 23:55


We are talking about two different things here. Vlado, you're still talking about FPS when WRITING to the framebuffer, and I'm talking about creating an image for the monitor. And there you can only use combinations of frequencies (and resolutions) that standard monitors support by default. And they support 60Hz frame rate as standard. Some also support 50Hz, but you can't rely on it. If you create a screenmode with a different one (for example, 15 or 30Hz, you will not see anything on the monitor, or you see a broken image.) So the practical maximum is about 1280x720/60Hz, which should be viewable on every monitor today.

EXTERNAL LINK


Vladimir Repcak

Posts 327
28 May 2020 00:17


Henrich Raduska wrote:

We are talking about two different things here. Vlado, you're still talking about FPS when WRITING to the framebuffer, and I'm talking about creating an image for the monitor. And there you can only use combinations of frequencies (and resolutions) that standard monitors support by default. And they support 60Hz frame rate as standard. Some also support 50Hz, but you can't rely on it. If you create a screenmode with a different one (for example, 15 or 30Hz, you will not see anything on the monitor, or you see a broken image.) So the practical maximum is about 1280x720/60Hz, which should be viewable on every monitor today.
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 

CRT would be unusable, due to frequencies, yes. But there isn't 1920x1080 CRT anyway. The highest CRT res was 2048x1536 (some 22" monsters)

But LCDs perhaps might ? Admittedly, I don't know anything about video out, but if 1920x1080 was successfully displayed at 25/30 on Vampire, then 12.5/15 Hz isn't entirely nonsensical, no ?

Unless, 25/30 Hz is actually accepted as a valid input and that's the lowest possible value...


Vladimir Repcak

Posts 327
28 May 2020 00:23


Roy Gillotti wrote:

@Vladimir
 
  It can work with RTG, the resolution would need to be setup p96 screenmode, however performance is another question.

Not necessarily.

vblank gives us how much - about ~17% of frame time ? That's ~289,000 (up to 289,000x2 due to second CPU pipe) cycles - quite a lot to move couple sprites around.

And we still have over 80% of frame time for game logic - that's actually ample time for some complex 2D physics (we'd probably reach the display limit sooner due to being able to update only during vblank).




Henrich Raduska

Posts 29
28 May 2020 08:58


Vlado, it has nothing to do with whether you have a CRT or an LCD. Nobody talks about CRT. LCD monitors via DIGITAL-VIDEO cannot display anything less than 49Hz, but usually require a minimum of 58Hz, depending on the brand and type. Samsung monitors usually requires a minimum of 58Hz and LG tends to be more tolerant. And interlaced picture (50i = 25Hz) will also not display correctly or simply no display. If the frame rate is less than about 58Hz (49), you will only see a black screen with the words "Out of Range". The monitors are built only for an image with frequencies according to the standard, ie an image that is based on a normal PC with a tolerance of a few percent. This even applies to combination monitors, which also have a TV tuner. Those on the external inputs cannot display what they can do from the internal TV tuner. Because the monitor manufacturer programmed it in the firmware, there is no problem from the HW side. So you can set a large number of different combinations of image parameters on the image output, but only the standard ones can be displayed on the LCD monitor. And the resolutions that work for you may not work for another person on their monitor. Therefore, standards must be adhered to.
  And a 1920x1080 vampire can produce it, but not every monitor (very few) can display it, because they expect 60Hz and 30Hz comes to them. But you want to sell your game to anyone, so you have to make it work for everyone.
 
  Maybe Gunnar could tell us what monitor he owns, on which he correctly displays 1920x1080/30Hz.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
28 May 2020 09:09


Henrich Raduska wrote:

LCD monitors via DIGITAL-VIDEO cannot display anything less than 49Hz, but usually require a minimum of 58Hz, depending on the brand and type.

 
The DIGITAL-VIDEO standard includes "cinema modes".
These modes include 24 Hz, 25 Hz and 30 Hz display.
A certified display needs to support them to be allowed to have the appropriate H-D-M-I sticker.
 
For example to be allowed to have a HD-Ready sticker, the display is required to support 1080p 24 fps.

This means mostly all TV and all monitors support these modes.
But you will need of course to "configure" the mode in P96 to the like of your device.

Lets repeat.
While the V2 can show FullHD 2K signal, which can be used for Workbench for example.
This is not guaranteed feature of the Vampire V2.
The Vampire V2 is designed a retro-accelerator which the goal to offer fast truecolor display in moderate screenmodes like 640x480, 800x600 or 960x540


Henrich Raduska

Posts 29
28 May 2020 09:13


But it doesn't work on many monitors. Therefore, users write here that the 50Hz resolutions, present in Coffin, does not work for them.
Monitor manufacturers simplify their work and produce monitors that can only be used for PCs.



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
28 May 2020 09:21


Henrich Raduska wrote:

  But it doesn't work on many monitors. Therefore, users write here that the 50Hz resolutions, present in Coffin, does not work for them.
  Monitor manufacturers simplify their work and produce monitors that can only be used for PCs.
 

 
I think, you are mixing up two different topics.

 
The Monitors are required to support these modes - otherwise they are not allowed to have an H-D-M-I sticker.
 
That P96 is ugly to configure and needs to be adjusted for each monitor is a different story - and does not mean that a monitor is technically not able to display a 24Hz mode.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
28 May 2020 09:42


This is of course a very complex and technical topic which has lots of room for misunderstanding.

I would recommend everybody to read the H-D-M-I specification before posting accidentally wrong assumptions here.

If a TV or Monitor does not print on the "box" that it supports cinema 24Hz mode - does not mean it not support it.

I had just to remove a misleading post by someone - which assumed this.

Please let not mislead users with wrong assumptions.




Markus B

Posts 189
28 May 2020 09:59


If you say the information was misleasing, can you please elaborate why you think this monitor supports 1080p24?

EXTERNAL LINK


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
28 May 2020 10:06


Markus B wrote:

  If you say the information was misleasing, can you please elaborate why you think this monitor supports 1080p24?
   
  EXTERNAL LINK 

   
This monitor is specified with "1x H-D-M-I 1.4".
Please read the DIGITAL-VIDEO spec then you know what this requires.

 
 
Let us not mislead the readers here.
As said before the V2 is designed for lower (more retro) resolutions around 960x540.
 
Officially we not support nor guarantee FULLHD mode.
We recommend users to use resolutions matching the design goal of the Vampire2 e.g. 800x600 or 960x540.

While such FullHD resolution can be driven with the V4 - this requires from the user to set up their P96 setting correct and we not guarantee this.


Markus B

Posts 189
28 May 2020 10:36


You're right. I verified with a Dell monitor I have access to here.
It's supposed to accept 56-72 Hz signals but accepts 24 Hz via DIGITAL-VIDEO. Display is fixed at 60 Hz.

So the technical data is possible related to the DVI input as that one is restricted to those frequencies.


Henrich Raduska

Posts 29
28 May 2020 10:40


It is the fault of monitor manufacturers that they do not meet the standards.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4791
28 May 2020 10:42


Henrich Raduska wrote:

It is the fault of monitor manufacturers that they do not meet the standards.

You misunderstand this.
The monitors support this mode.

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