Overview Features Coding ApolloOS Performance Forum Downloads Products Order Contact

Welcome to the Apollo Forum

This forum is for people interested in the APOLLO CPU.
Please read the forum usage manual.
Please visit our Apollo-Discord Server for support.



All TopicsNewsPerformanceGamesDemosApolloVampireAROSWorkbenchATARIReleases
Documentation about the Vampire hardware

Megachip Compatible With Vampire 500 and Chip Mequpage  1 2 

P Govotsos

Posts 9
19 Oct 2016 03:43


Hello,

Is the Vampire 500 compatible with the DKB Megachip EXTERNAL LINK As in is it physically compatible (both will physically fit) and the Megachip will still function when the Vampire 500 is installed (the system will have 2MB chip memory).

When you are using the DIGITAL-VIDEO video output of the Vampire 500, does it use chip memory for the screens or only the memory on the Vampire board? I guess the real question is if it really matters how much chip memory the machine has once you only use the RTG of the Vampire. If I only have 512K chip memory, will that impose any limitations on the number, resolution or bit depth of screens that can be used?

Thanks for your help!


Brian Robotham

Posts 52
19 Oct 2016 04:20



Hi, 

  The megachip cannot fit on the A500 as the Vampire rests over the agnus socket, you would need a cpu adapter tp relocate the v500 further back in order to fit it. The V500 will use fastmem for DIGITAL-VIDEO so you have little chipmem used.  Best solutions are either Rev6a 1mb chipmem hack or an A500+ which has 1mb chipmem already and can be expanded to 2mb chipmem

  The A2000 can also have the megachip installed if you use the a2000 adapter to relocate the V500.


P Govotsos

Posts 9
21 Oct 2016 02:54


Is anyone making a CPU adapter? If not, would using a riser or two to lift the Vampire above the Megachip work? I would guess that would have less effect on timing than the adapter anyway with the much shorter distance? Not that an inch or two would necessarily make much difference as slow as the signals are.


Michael Nurney

Posts 283
06 Nov 2016 16:14


Just use a riser , I used to in a 2000 and 500 with the mega midget racer fitted.

I used pin strips in the 68000 socket, easy .


OneSTone O2o

Posts 159
06 Nov 2016 18:20


Why using Megachip (adds 2 MB ram) if Vampire has 128 MB RAM onboard?


Roger Shimada

Posts 30
06 Nov 2016 19:43


oneSTone o2o wrote:

Why using Megachip (adds 2 MB ram) if Vampire has 128 MB RAM onboard?

On the Amiga, "chip" memory is accessible by the custom chips (not just the CPU).

Classic Amigas have from 512K to 2MB of chip memory.

So the Vampire's DIGITAL-VIDEO is driven from the Vampire's memory.



Szyk Cech

Posts 191
06 Nov 2016 19:47


oneSTone o2o wrote:

Why using Megachip (adds 2 MB ram) if Vampire has 128 MB RAM onboard?

Stupid question as hell!!! Amiga has Chip memory and Fast memory. I suppose Megachip expands Chip memory up to 2MB. It is common value in last models classic Amigas (even A600 can be easy expanded to 2MB Chip).


Captain Zalo

Posts 71
06 Nov 2016 20:17


Szyk Cech wrote:

oneSTone o2o wrote:

  Why using Megachip (adds 2 MB ram) if Vampire has 128 MB RAM onboard?
 

 
  Stupid question as hell!!! Amiga has Chip memory and Fast memory. I suppose Megachip expands Chip memory up to 2MB. It is common value in last models classic Amigas (even A600 can be easy expanded to 2MB Chip).

Isn't it so that once the Vampire is installed and runs in the amiga, only memory onboard the Vampire is used? Being dependent on memory that is around 200 times slower than the rest of the accelleratorboard sounds outright pants-on-head retarded.



Wawa T

Posts 695
06 Nov 2016 22:57


chip memory is used for amiga chipset. expanding chipset memory may actually make sense for software that is dependant on it no matter at what rates fast memory works. simply familiarize yourself with basic amiga concepts.


Captain Zalo

Posts 71
07 Nov 2016 00:07


So you're telling me there's no remapping in the Vampire and it utilizes the bottleneck legacy chipmem instead of the Vampire onboard memory? That sounds very strange to me. Any team members that care to answer the question?


John Heritage

Posts 111
07 Nov 2016 02:41


Captain Zalo wrote:

So you're telling me there's no remapping in the Vampire and it utilizes the bottleneck legacy chipmem instead of the Vampire onboard memory? That sounds very strange to me. Any team members that care to answer the question?

I'm not Apollo team, but i'll try to answer your question.

Short - Yes and No, it depends on the function you're trying to access.  The Chip memory does not necessarily limit CPU speed of the Vampire.

The Vampire is not a complete replacement for the Amiga chips, it's an augmentation.  Vampire provides a much faster CPU, 'fast memory', and enhanced functionality that goes beyond the stock chipset (without replacing it).  Like any other accelerator, the AmigaOS (and software applications) determine whether to use the chip memory or 'fast memory' depending on the need.

For example - Paula, Amiga's soundchip (and other things) can only access 'chip memory', so if you want to play music out the amiga's audio out, you *must* use the address that relates to chip memory.

If you're running a calculation of some kind that is fully CPU dependent, then the CPU can use whatever RAM it has access to since the CPU can access addresses much higher than (the up to) 2MB that the chipset is limited to.

Now, last thing i'll say is if you're outputting via the Vampire DIGITAL-VIDEO to a 1920x1080 desktop, you're going to be hitting Vampire RAM for the desktop because the Vampire emulates a 'RTG' (retargetable graphics) as a driver that the OS uses to write to the new addresses provided by the vampire (as opposed to the usual Amiga video out). 

EXTERNAL LINK 
Good primer on Chip vs Fast RAM.


John William

Posts 563
08 Nov 2016 06:18


John Heritage wrote:

Captain Zalo wrote:

  So you're telling me there's no remapping in the Vampire and it utilizes the bottleneck legacy chipmem instead of the Vampire onboard memory? That sounds very strange to me. Any team members that care to answer the question?
 

 
  I'm not Apollo team, but i'll try to answer your question.
 
  Short - Yes and No, it depends on the function you're trying to access.  The Chip memory does not necessarily limit CPU speed of the Vampire.
 
  The Vampire is not a complete replacement for the Amiga chips, it's an augmentation.  Vampire provides a much faster CPU, 'fast memory', and enhanced functionality that goes beyond the stock chipset (without replacing it).  Like any other accelerator, the AmigaOS (and software applications) determine whether to use the chip memory or 'fast memory' depending on the need.
 
  For example - Paula, Amiga's soundchip (and other things) can only access 'chip memory', so if you want to play music out the amiga's audio out, you *must* use the address that relates to chip memory.
 
  If you're running a calculation of some kind that is fully CPU dependent, then the CPU can use whatever RAM it has access to since the CPU can access addresses much higher than (the up to) 2MB that the chipset is limited to.
 
  Now, last thing i'll say is if you're outputting via the Vampire DIGITAL-VIDEO to a 1920x1080 desktop, you're going to be hitting Vampire RAM for the desktop because the Vampire emulates a 'RTG' (retargetable graphics) as a driver that the OS uses to write to the new addresses provided by the vampire (as opposed to the usual Amiga video out). 
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Good primer on Chip vs Fast RAM.

And I like it LIKE THAT just fiine :DD!


Captain Zalo

Posts 71
08 Nov 2016 13:01


John William wrote:

John Heritage wrote:

 
Captain Zalo wrote:

  So you're telling me there's no remapping in the Vampire and it utilizes the bottleneck legacy chipmem instead of the Vampire onboard memory? That sounds very strange to me. Any team members that care to answer the question?
 

 
  I'm not Apollo team, but i'll try to answer your question.
 
  Short - Yes and No, it depends on the function you're trying to access.  The Chip memory does not necessarily limit CPU speed of the Vampire.
(words)
  Good primer on Chip vs Fast RAM.
 

 
 
  And I like it LIKE THAT just fiine :DD!

I understand what you think, but I have to say I think it's totally bat-shit crazy if what you claim is in fact true on the Vampire accelleratorboards. Not readressing chipram to a chunk (of say 2, 4, 6, 8 megabytes of RAM) on the onboard Vampire and instead relying on the 512k to 2megs for all things customchips sounds weird.  Unless, of course, you have pulled these facts straight out of the air. Which is why I'd rather have a statement with facts from a team member instead of some feelings and guess-work from the choir.
With all due respect. I'm part of this choir, or I wouldn't have spent time on the forum.


Michal Warzecha

Posts 209
08 Nov 2016 14:04


It's not so weird.
Vampire is a CPU card and it work as CPU in Amiga should work. It's aimed with FAST RAM and RTG graphic card, and other super things. But that all is from CPU side. Rest of Amiga hardware stay not touched, so, to use any of it original chips, You need talk to their CHIP memory. It's normall.
When all chips will be cloned and "tuned" by team inside FPGA- then 512kB/1MB/2MB barrier with slow amiga chip RAM will dissappear. And it will be door for standalone system.


David Wright

Posts 373
08 Nov 2016 15:26


This makes sense. What doesn't is why in emulation can you go beyond the 2mb chip barrier? On my Amibian setup it shows 8mb chip.

Curious.


Marlon Beijer

Posts 182
08 Nov 2016 19:04


David Wright wrote:

  This makes sense. What doesn't is why in emulation can you go beyond the 2mb chip barrier? On my Amibian setup it shows 8mb chip.
 
  Curious.
 

  Because the chipset is emulated maybe? I fail to see how emulation is relevant here. :)
The limit is in the chipset hardware and how it was designed:
EXTERNAL LINK


Marlon Beijer

Posts 182
08 Nov 2016 19:15


Wikipedia wrote:

The maximum amount of Chip RAM in any model is 2 MiB. The Amiga 4000 motherboard includes a non-functional jumper that anticipated later chips and is labeled for 8 MiB of Chip RAM—regardless of its position, the system only recognizes 2 MiB due to the limitations of the Alice chip. However, the software emulator UAE can emulate an Amiga system with the design limit of up to 8 MiB of Chip RAM.

From the wikipedia article


Marlon Beijer

Posts 182
08 Nov 2016 19:19


Captain Zalo wrote:
I understand what you think, but I have to say I think it's totally bat-shit crazy if what you claim is in fact true...

Do some research on the limitations on the actual amiga hardware. The only way OCS/ECS/AGA would use the fastram on the Vampire is if the chipset is also included in the FPGA. And I believe that's the purpose of SAGA a.k.a Super AGA in the future.


John William

Posts 563
08 Nov 2016 19:38


Just what benefit you get if you do increase the chip RAM beyond the 2 MB anyways? Right now where it stands because of RTG...chip RAM's purpose is for whdload and audio and do you honestly need more than 2 MB for that purpose? Now you can watch video on your A600/A500 with 512 KB of CHIP RAM thanks to vampire...I say...leave it like that. It makes sense the way it is. The speed and RAM of chip RAM is perfect for audio and whdload games.


Michal Warzecha

Posts 209
08 Nov 2016 22:00


Not exactly. Chip RAM is theoretically most important memory inside Amiga. It's basic memory inside Amiga. That's why when You want to play Super Frog You still need to jump to Amiga standard Video output. Of course when AGA will be implemented and enchanced by team I think there will not be necessary to split memory to Chip/Fast/Slow etc. Just many MB of Chip RAM. But someone from team should say something about that, but in my opinion it should go this direction.

posts 25page  1 2