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What Happned to the LINUX Thread ?page  1 2 3 

Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
10 Oct 2017 08:42


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  You mean GNU tools?
  Like sed, grep, GCC, or stuff like APACHE, MYSQL ?
  All of this works fine on AMIGA OS
  Fred Fish once initiated a lot of this

True, its all scarce and avail on Aminet too. I am no developer, but looks a bit outdated to me. Yet usable.

Another "distant dream" question - for future project in ApolloOS - is: could we have a Linux sandbox (kind of virtual box minus its same CPU arhitecture so CPU and hardware does not need to be emulated, just the OS structure - kind of WINE solution).

It would be best to run those few usefull Linux apps from inside the AmigaOS and while quite heavy load to develop, surely is quicker route then porting all apps and dependencies.

It can even be minimal envirovment needed just for certain apps, namely browser, office and maybe something else (older VLC, GIMP ...).

Might also save hustle of non GUI OS install, separate ext2 partitions, file exchange, OS being resource hungry compared to AmigaOS (and constant root password demands Amiga users find boring plus strange cmd syntax compared to AmigaOS).

While developers ask for good development and web development Linux tools, users would ask for few nice FLOSS apps.

Note that whole Linux story could be easily forgotten IF we had some kind of office and browser in development. Long long time ago Majsta mentioned some Netscape port (v500 premiere video) but I havent heard anything about it, here or anywhere.


Peeri the Sunlight

Posts 71
10 Oct 2017 09:55


Now when finally something wonderfull hapened in Amiga scene, it would rise huge expetations and imaginations how things should be done. When the developer team aim don't met these expetations somebody will be fustrated. That is humane.
 
  Please Apollo team know what they are doing, let them do it.
 
  Apollo is 68k core, keeping Amiga on mind and Vampire is first application family and made for Amiga. And good so. If you wish to have Linux device there are cheaper and faster solutions: (Omega 2 = cheaper, and Sunway Blue light mpp = faster)
 
  Amiga don't need MMU (it can't utilize it now nor never) Simply because that how Amiga works.
  Amiga don't need FPU, some programs utilize it and thats fine, but it work fine without. (femu can help)
  Amiga don't need Linux, Window$, CP/M, IOS; Because Amiga runs own operating system what we all love <3.
 
  Stop whining! Let Apollo and Vampire to be AMIGA product.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
10 Oct 2017 10:21


Peeri the sunlight wrote:

  Amiga don't need Linux, Window$, CP/M, IOS; Because Amiga runs own operating system what we all love <3.
 
  Stop whining! Let Apollo and Vampire to be AMIGA product.

It surely is Amiga most of, thanks to both 080 and SAGA.

Linux does not make it any less Amiga, its simply most versatile OS in terms of arhitecture - that up to certain point had a m68k arhitecture and AMIGAs as valid target.

Point is not of raising expectations to the sky - example is expectation to run exactly the same Linux past Amigas has, not some 2017 MATE/KDE 3 Plasma edition with latest Libre and Firefox.

And it simply because of usable apps, not because of Pengiun or FLOSS dramma.

People complain such Linux might eat 33MB on boot. Well enough on 128mb Vamp to do job in app or two, and on 512mb v4 one could not care less.

Point is extra power and RAM offered by Apollo is well enough for such Linux.

Adopting any modern app to AmigaOS is way tougher job then optimizing one m68k Linux distro for Vamp.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
10 Oct 2017 10:53


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

Point is not of raising expectations to the sky - example is expectation to run exactly the same Linux past Amigas has,

 
Have you ever used these LINUX an a real AMIGA?

I would propose before you continue here to vote for this.
Please try it out first.
I'm sure after you did this, your opinion will change and you will love using NETSURF on AMIGA OS very much more.


Kresimir Lukin

Posts 65
10 Oct 2017 11:52


In this story,as regular Linux user on PC, I am on Apollo team side.
They just don't have time to make all possible OS-es to work on V4 or V2.
They have goal to finish hardware,to test hardware with Amiga OS 3.X and Aros 68k.
Once V4 and core 3 will be out in the shops, I will buy it and use Aros and Amiga OS.
Linux works everywhere, even on fridges :)
Maybe once when V4 will be available, someone will port it, if that happen I will be happy to try it.
At this moment I only pray for V4 to come to stores as early as possible, especially standalone.
I also understand people who wants Amiga to become again their main and only computer, but let's be realistic, what is done already is great, first improvement of platform since 1992 and AGA chipset.


Captain Zalo

Posts 71
10 Oct 2017 14:08


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  Point is not of raising expectations to the sky - example is expectation to run exactly the same Linux past Amigas has,
 

 
  Have you ever used these LINUX an a real AMIGA?
 
  I would propose before you continue here to vote for this.
  Please try it out first.
  I'm sure after you did this, your opinion will change and you will love using NETSURF on AMIGA OS very much more.

^^ This is gold. Thanks, Gunnar.

Putting it short: "The Apollo team will put exactly zero effort into supporting Linux. Whatever you want outside our scope is not of our concern."
I doubt the thread will be missed.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
10 Oct 2017 14:22


Captain Zalo wrote:

Putting it short: "The Apollo team will put exactly zero effort into supporting Linux. Whatever you want outside our scope is not of our concern."

 
No, this is not what we said.
 
What we clearly said:
 
If serious developers approach us,
developer that are serious about doing all the software developmet
Then we will gladly give them all the support they need.
 
But pipe dreams to use a 80MHz Computer with 100 MB fastmem run FIREFOX on LINUX for browsing modern website - makes no sense at all. And we will certainly not waste our time for this.
 
If developer want to do something - we help them.
If you dont want to develop but think you need to share your endless wishlists of what others should port for you or should develop for you - then this is the wrong forum.


Martin Soerensen

Posts 232
10 Oct 2017 14:48


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Martin Soerensen wrote:

  Something like that would enable one to recompile common linux tools to run under AmigaDOS which could be very useful.
 

  You mean GNU tools?
  Like sed, grep, GCC, or stuff like APACHE, MYSQL ?

Yes, GNU tools but Apache, MySQL and so on would probably be too ambitious. I know that many common tools have already been converted to AmigaOS, but it usually requires some modifications of the source code. Ideally, one should be able to grab an existing source for some Linux command-line program, perform a make and have it run with hardly any modifications to the source or makefile. This would increase availability of various tools and also mean that updates for those tools could quickly be 'ported' back to AmigaOS.

I don't know if this would be feasible, although I do know that the issue with threads is probably not easy to get around and some (many?) tools does indeed utilize multi-threading as part of their normal operation even if it is not apparent. For example, I was surprised by the fact that the rsync client used fork() which made it hard to port to Amiga. Since there is no simple way to implement a wrapper between fork() and AmigaOS, this might be a blocker to make an Amiga version of something like CygWin.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
10 Oct 2017 14:50


Martin Soerensen wrote:

Yes, GNU tools but Apache, MySQL and so on would probably be too ambitious.

They used to compile and run perfectly fine on AMIGA.
I've compiled APACHE, PHP, MYSQL for AMIGA before and ran (long ago) a database driving website from my A4000.



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
10 Oct 2017 15:20


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
 
    Have you ever used these LINUX an a real AMIGA?
   
    I would propose before you continue here to vote for this.
    Please try it out first.
   

   
    Yes I have seen it on pimped 040 and APUS on PPC 604.
    Slow, but usable.
   
    Considering unoptimized AGA/CGX drivers and underpowered 040 to Vampire, there is a lot of room to grow. But if you deem it as too much, OK.
 
 
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    But pipe dreams to use a 80MHz Computer with 100 MB fastmem run FIREFOX on LINUX for browsing modern website - makes no sense at all. And we will certainly not waste our time for this.
 

 
  OK, looking forward on seeing the "other solution". And no its not modern Firefox, but yet more modern then Timberwolf. same goes for office etc.

Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  They used to compile and run perfectly fine on AMIGA.
  I've compiled APACHE, PHP, MYSQL for AMIGA before and ran (long ago) a database driving website from my A4000.

Gunnar is here right:

Apache EXTERNAL LINK  My SQL EXTERNAL LINK  PHP EXTERNAL LINK


Sebastian Blanco

Posts 148
10 Oct 2017 16:37


I can say from real world experience that running linux on a 68040 quadra even after overclocking and using 64 megs of ram was a slow and painfull experience.

Also another problem is that the 68k port of debian the best one, is broken to the point of being almost impossible to use on a daily base fixing the distribution could require an enormous amount of work. And i don't imagine how much work could take to backport a modern kernel and userland.

I have a german friend that used to live here that even back ported kernel module drivers from modern kernels to the old debian 68k for fun he managed to get his orinoco gold working and wifi in his powerbook 68k.

He worked weeks on this if my memory don't fail, doing the back port of more software must not be impossible so people interested could get they hands dirty and start working on it using a cross compiler and a old 68k mac they are not hard to get,  then when the vampire MMU is ready they can just use this as a base, maybe even start a new distribution for amiga vampire.




Mallagan Bellator

Posts 393
10 Oct 2017 17:52


Kolbjørn Barmen wrote:

Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    If we tell you LINUX is not on our roadmap then you have your answer.
 

 
  Maybe you should broaden that to "Any operating system depending on MMU is not on our roadmap, because the MMU of the Apollo Core is busy being the glue that keeps Vampire cards working, and hence can never be fully exposed to any operating system!"

Why don't you just go away? It sure seems like you don't really like the vampire or the team anyway? Why spread negativity around you?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
10 Oct 2017 18:17


Sebastian Blanco wrote:

I can say from real world experience that running linux on a 68040 quadra even after overclocking and using 64 megs of ram was a slow and painfull experience.

I fully reckon that, acknowledging also that added improved 080 arhitecture speed, IDE speed up, gfx driver speed up, more and faster RAM compared to any past 68k machine can be a breathe of life too.

I would donate towards a Vampire specific distro, minimalistic and optimized. I would need any OpenOffice or Libre 3.x if possible, decent VLC and Midori. Nothing more. Developers might add few tools.

But that needs Vamp baseline core, more Vampires to be spread, so more people interested.

I am opting for Vampire not only Amiga comeback, but "capable of NG task".

Other option is to see Libre 3.x and some browser port for AmigaOS. I would not be a happier chap to do my works in AOS and never have to switch to other hardware I do have. But sadly current state of AmigaOS 4.x and ApolloOS do not offer that. Both nostalgia, YAM, Dopus and some decent surf, video playback and Office works. Thats all.


Mallagan Bellator

Posts 393
10 Oct 2017 18:30


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  Point is not of raising expectations to the sky - example is expectation to run exactly the same Linux past Amigas has,
 

 
  Have you ever used these LINUX an a real AMIGA?
 
  I would propose before you continue here to vote for this.
  Please try it out first.
  I'm sure after you did this, your opinion will change and you will love using NETSURF on AMIGA OS very much more.

I tried Debian 68k on my A1200 040 @40mhz many years ago. It was slower than Amiga OS 3.5 that I normally used at that time. It was also quite boring, and it didn't support my voodoo 3 card


Mr Niding

Posts 459
10 Oct 2017 21:00


@Vojin

People like me and you are no use with our money unless we have one or more developer showing intrest.
Plus, given that Arti so far only got 17 dollars per months for his efforts (95% from me), Im not holding my breath.


Johannes Schäfer

Posts 47
10 Oct 2017 22:31



Just for the kiddies:

Linux is a kernal

The software surrounding Linux (called apps by kiddies) is called GNU tools

Back in the 90´s the best computer for developing these GNU tools has been the Amiga. A MMU wasn´t neccessary because you don´t need an MMU to code in C.

Every open source GNU tool available in C can be compiled (more a less simply) onto every CPU, even back to Amiga.

No need for Apollo Team for wasting time doing development for a software - multitasking - operating software when the hardware - multitasking - operating - software system OS3 is way better and faster.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
11 Oct 2017 01:13


Johannes Schäfer wrote:

 
  The software surrounding Linux (called apps by kiddies) is called GNU tools
 
  Back in the 90´s the best computer for developing these GNU tools has been the Amiga. A MMU wasn´t neccessary because you don´t need an MMU to code in C.

 
  I fully agree we would get even more from the apps, if we could have e.g. Midori and Libre 3.x backported to AmigaOS and GTK interfrace converted to e.g. MUI.

Hope we could have a developers team and bounties.


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
11 Oct 2017 04:01


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
Note that whole Linux story could be easily forgotten IF we had some kind of office and browser in development.

Hi Vojin,

What's missing? (The highlighted text.)


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
11 Oct 2017 04:06


Mallagan Bellator wrote:
Why don't you just go away? It sure seems like you don't really like the vampire or the team anyway? Why spread negativity around you?

I totally agree with you.



Nixus Minimax

Posts 416
11 Oct 2017 10:26


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
I would need any OpenOffice or Libre 3.x if possible, decent VLC and Midori.

As long as there is no 080 ASIC, none of this seems even remotely realistic.


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