Overview Features Instructions Performance Forum Downloads Products OrderV4 Reseller Contact

Welcome to the Apollo Forum

This forum is for people interested in the APOLLO CPU.
Please read the forum usage manual.

All TopicsNewsPerformanceGamesDemosApolloVampireAROSWorkbenchATARIReleases
Information about the Apollo CPU and FPU.

Do It, Do It Now.page  1 2 3 

Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 176
12 Nov 2019 11:42

Kyle Blake wrote:

Vampire is a project to make a very fast Amiga 68k computer.
  It isn't an OS development project.
  Many people have suggested radical changes to AmigaOS. Hundreds of people. If you want to see it, start with the Abacus book "Amiga C for Beginners", ISBN 1-55755-045-x
  Practice hard and in 5 years you can begin to make the changes you want.

Best answer ever!

Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
12 Nov 2019 11:54

nicolas sipieter wrote:

    all those examples about,
      - motorcycle being turned into cars,
      - and humming bird being turned into turtle,
      and such
      are not correct, because:
      - win95, and winnt and win98se and windowsxp they all are windows, with windows-y user experience, things and concepts are the same, a windows user finds it is roughly, all in all the same user experience.. it's windows.
      - microsoft did have win98 there was no mp, and it was crashy
      - microsoft did winnt, there was mp and it was stable, but no compatibility with win98.
      - so microsoft did winxp, which is winnt, with win98 compatibility layer.
      so they did it in steps.
      but anyway my point is while windows was undertaking significant changes and overhaul, noone at microsoft suddenly stood up and said:
      hey! we changed things, *this* is no more a real "windows", we changed things, that's crazy, omg what have we done ?!....
      after some denial time, struggling to acknowledge their product sucked, they finally got their shit together and talked:
      - our system sucks, why ?
      - stability issues.
      - oh.. ok, we need to do something about it.
      - let's modify the way it work.
      - ok

    windows XP is windows NT 5.1
    Windows NT first came in 1993, it is a fork of OS/2 from 1980s, it is far older than windows95-98.
    There has been no significant change to how the windows NT design works to this day. Framework is exactly the same, more features are added like adding an extra wing to a mansion.
    In fact windows 95-98 were designed to imitate how windows NT works at the API level.
    So the situation is completely opposite of what you think.
    Motorcycle-car comparison is to try and make you understand that Windows and AmigaOS are different from each other because they have a different purpose.
  AmigaOS lets me run couple lines of code and hack whole behavior of the graphics chip. This is a very good feature! I can use it for an excellent colour gradient desktop!
Windows doesn't, because it's considered a security fault. Bad for confidential government or business work. But windows has luxury of 24 bit graphics card and 6GB of video ram, so if you want a pretty desktop it can load a jpeg.
  The way of working is different, because they live in different situations.

Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 176
12 Nov 2019 11:58

nicolas sipieter wrote:

  windows broke compatibility too, yet found a way to allow running old soft.
  macos broke compatibility too, yet found a way also to run old softs.

nicolas sipieter wrote:

  make necessary amend to amiga-like-OSes.
  - smp
  - memory protection
  - resource tracking
  - unicode

Such an overhaul to the OS is non-trivial and requires specialised skills and could easily overwhelm even reasonably well financed commercial efforts to do so.  Look at what happened when Apple tried to replace OS7/8.  They failed.  OS-X is what then replaced those efforts.  Your wishes are not entirely unreasonable though.  You want some foundational features to be added which, in the minds of many, would stabilise and enhance the Amiga experience.  It is a respectable wish and you are not alone.  But the bad news is, you asked on the wrong forum.  Try AROS or asking Cloanto/Hyperion.

I personally don't wish for such changes because I have Linux for all that.  I especially don't like reading yet another diatribe on this topic from someone who has clearly NOT read the numerous prior discussions on this topic.

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4762
12 Nov 2019 11:59

Kyle Blake wrote:

AmigaOS lets me run couple lines of code and hack whole behavior of the graphics chip. This is a very good feature! I can use it for an excellent colour gradient desktop!
Windows does not, it is a security fault. B

Yes, this is a very good point.
Tuning AMIGA OS in another Linux - will effectively kill all what is great, good, and better in AMIGA OS than in other OS.

Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 12:08

  yes, i have read all the other topics on the subject throughout the years.
  i have not asked on the wrong forum, because i am simply not asking anything. i am just talking about potential future directions for amiga-like-os.
  aros is already experimenting on this. aros runs on apollo. so this is all good subject, on-topic.
  personally i'm following amiga news since 2002, as an exclusive linux user since that time, it is when i've sold all my amiga gear, because it was expensive, slow, unstable, buggy sack of old electronic parts.
  the os, though, it is looking nice, it has simple file structure and user experience is great, it is lightweight and have lots of good points compared to other desktops/OSes. but its doom is unstability.

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4762
12 Nov 2019 12:40

This topic here was nonsense!
And nonsense like this is wasting our time to support users here in the forum.

People that post here just non-sense need to understand that such nonsense topic might get deleted.

Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
12 Nov 2019 13:08

Deleting just means we get nothing from our efforts, a real waste.

Better if you execute the thread and put it's head on a spike at the city gates, as a warning to others.

Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 13:22

it won't help.
  i can create new account, and pass through vpn and proxies.
  beside, you know what i'm talking about is already happening, it's in the pipeline and in a few years you'll have some. so stop deluding yourselves.
  anyway, message passed.

Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
12 Nov 2019 13:27

Meaningless. I bet my house we never see such AmigaOS release. MorphOS maybe, AROS maybe. But here we run 68K AmigaOS3 like god intended us to.

Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 13:33

god have nothing to do with this.
  all amiga flavors are gearing toward these changes.
  even apollo itself as a cpu/chipset solution, try to make the necessary change to allow smp in hypothetical future.
  even if amigaos itself doesn't evolve and stay stuck like it always was since 1995 aros and mos and os4 will.
  so unless amigaos get opensourced by cloanto and make the changes itself, well there will be aros, so all good to me.

Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
12 Nov 2019 13:43

You think OS4 will have another release! now we see who begs god the most

Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 13:47

there can be a kernel release only.
it's possible. i'm not pro-os4. quite the opposite in fact.
my hopes are all on aros and morphos.

David Wright

Posts 350
12 Nov 2019 16:20

No more Game of Thrones for you Kyle.

Wawa T

Posts 695
12 Nov 2019 16:36

nicolas sipieter wrote:

  @vojin, yes i'm especialy hopeful for aros.

  then you will be disappointed. all your demands conflict with amiga design decisions that consequently became characteristics of the os. shared memory, passing messages via pointers, certain synchronisation techniques.
  when an os like aros is designed to be source compatible with amiga os and especially binary compatible with it on the same architecture, it needs to respect these constraints.
  if you dont care about compatibility though you can simply take any other os, say linux, and run amiga software in instances of emulation, such as uae.
  no ranting here will help with that, sorry.

Wawa T

Posts 695
12 Nov 2019 16:40

and yes, you could take look at some general programming and computing information to understand, what you demand for amd why your demands are impossible.

except for unicode i guess, thats on the road for aros.

other than that it sounds like you have fallen for marketing talk about execsg or something. true, aros has a basic smp implementation, at least on x86_64 and it works, but it is deliberately disabled for m68k and there is no outlook it would work here without breaking compatibility. already one overlooked structure padding change, while implementing smp, has caused quite a number of amiga applications to fail and it was a bit hard to debug.

Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 17:30

there was also talks of using specificies of x86_64 to have some sort of memory protection. i don't remember all the details but i had to do with that particular arch that allowed for some clever tricks. (it wasn't just mmu usage for pseudo-mp)
iirc it was michal schulz who was entertaining the idea.

also, i have not fallen for os4/exec-sg marketing, i dislike hyperion and os4. what i'm saying, i've been saying the same since 2002.
nevertheless they too are going the way i describe, although i believe their result will take ages and will be lame, like everything os4 related.

so aros is experimeting that way, morphos too, os4 too.
and i bet it will be aros that will find the way first.
they've driven innovation so far in amigaland

Eric Gus

Posts 390
13 Nov 2019 05:01

This is all interesting stuff but I hate to tell you that you are really asking on the wrong site, this would really be better discussed over on the AROS site where they can actually do some of what you are talking about.. nothing can be done here.

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4762
13 Nov 2019 07:20

I fully understand why he talks here.
Because if you want to add support for stuff like this to AMIGA in a sensible way then you need HW support for this.

This means if you like to do this you need an IOMMU which controls Blitter and DMA channels. You also need a CPU which is able to do SMP and which is fully coherent.

So talking to US HERE - makes really sense - as its US HERE which can develop this, or have already developed this.

Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
13 Nov 2019 07:23

re-considering the various limitations that may apply to the problems amiga and its community are facing, i'm thinking that maybe i can have caused unnecessary pain to the remaining .. individuals.

so apologies to them,
all peachy dandy now, you can all forget about this discussion.
it's like, it didn't happen. wonderful no ?

i'd like to take this opportunity to suggest a little group singing, as music is known to alleviate pain.

it could start like this (who's with me?)
- (use harp) KumbayaaaAAaa my lord, make amiga great agaiaAAaan
- KumbayaaAaa amiga rul0rz teh pc will die1
- (comeon everyone!)

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4762
13 Nov 2019 07:30

Salut Nicolas,
to be honest I think your "Amiga" memories might be different than my daily experience.
To me AMIGA is _very_ stable under the condition of having:
a) stable hardware
If the Hardware is stable you can listen to MP3 nonstop for days, you can watch movies for days, view slideshows of pictures for weeks...
I had test AMIGAs running for several month non stop without any crash. And they could have run longer for sure.
From my experience AMIGA OS - as it - is pretty stable.
If your experience was different then maybe your setup had some issues.

posts 54page  1 2 3