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Polygon Pushing Performance of the 080page  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 

Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
11 Oct 2018 16:07


Ronnie Beck wrote:

Louis Dias wrote:

 
Ronnie Beck wrote:

 
Louis Dias wrote:

    Can you explain to me how I can add a PCI[e,x] card to a stand-alone V4?
   

   
    ????????
 

  What is so hard to understand?  I don't see any such expansion slot listed on the V4....
 


 
  Your attitude.  Your asking of self answering questions.  Those things, mostly.

Your constructive response(s) is even more enticing...


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
11 Oct 2018 16:12


Louis Dias wrote:

  Can you explain to me how I can add a PCI[e,x] card to a stand-alone V4?

  > I don't see any such expansion slot listed on the V4, so how am I >to run games that depend on  Warp3D?


 
  There are no PCI/PCI-X ports and they are not planned. Maybe V6+
 
  For now, its integrated sys with RTG support with no such add on cards planned. Neither there are Zorro II/III slots.
 
  You will not be able until we see either some w3d comatibile hardware added to V4 FPGA (not planned, I asked but more politely then you) or by some optimized w3d 080 ammx emulation, but that is nowhere near usable for now.
 
  If it makes you happy, not even single OS4 Amiga"NG" cannot do the same without high rated Radeons and additional driver to Enhancer. So elsewehere it took time and wasnt out of box solution.


Andy Hearn

Posts 374
11 Oct 2018 17:31


Hey Andrew Copland,

Good link! many thanks :) bit of good info there for those interested



Steve Ferrell

Posts 424
11 Oct 2018 17:33


Ronnie Beck wrote:

Steve Ferrell wrote:

  You bring up IO interface chipset controllers for USB and SATA as an example of why a GPU should be kept discrete from a CPU.  I stand by my statement as to why the big chip makers...............
 

 
  For the sake of efficiency, just imagine that I wrote the phrase "I said nothing like that.  Why can't you just simply read?" after your first few points and then your remaining points become irrelevant artifacts of poor reading comprehension.  No point wasting time on counter arguments to incomprehension and conjecture.  Thanks.

Well, I live in the real world and I didn't "imagine" anything that you wrote OR implied.  The only poor comprehension going on here is coming from your direction in terms of hardware engineering and LSI.  Why can't you just simply comprehend? You're welcome!


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
11 Oct 2018 18:07


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
Louis Dias wrote:

    Can you explain to me how I can add a PCI[e,x] card to a stand-alone V4?
 
    > I don't see any such expansion slot listed on the V4, so how am I >to run games that depend on  Warp3D?
 

   
    There are no PCI/PCI-X ports and they are not planned. Maybe V6+
   
    For now, its integrated sys with RTG support with no such add on cards planned. Neither there are Zorro II/III slots.
   
    You will not be able until we see either some w3d comatibile hardware added to V4 FPGA (not planned, I asked but more politely then you) or by some optimized w3d 080 ammx emulation, but that is nowhere near usable for now.
   
    If it makes you happy, not even single OS4 Amiga"NG" cannot do the same without high rated Radeons and additional driver to Enhancer. So elsewehere it took time and wasnt out of box solution.
 

  Thank you for this reply.  We have now come full circle to what I said from the beginning:  "for a V5" ... though you're saying V6... :)
...and mind you - I don't want those ports - I'd prefer chipset enhancements...so that they become the *new* standard like everything else the team has been doing.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
11 Oct 2018 19:42


Louis Dias wrote:

  ...and mind you - I don't want those ports - I'd prefer chipset enhancements...so that they become the *new* standard like everything else the team has been doing.

Me too. A last 3dfx chip emulated in FPGA would do my Magic + provide Glide API. As example.Could be Virge 3D or Cirrus Logic.

But is not near teams plans, SAGA is the way. Might come back in future. There is not so many w3d 68k apps and games anyway.



Andrew Copland

Posts 113
11 Oct 2018 20:21


Markus B wrote:

I am really confused why it's always bound to the questions of a discrete GPU.
  Wouldn't be it beneficial and possibly easy to achieve implementing multiple AMMX units?

This isn't a request for a separate GPU, not from me anyway.

I'd like to remind people that we do already have simple polygon fill operations on Amiga and that they've been used for 3D before.

People have even been trying to get them to do subpixel precision!
EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK 
When I'm posting stuff here it's not to say that there needs to be a whole new separate GPU, just a very simple rasteriser.

Something that we talked about doing for Natami, but simplified as far as is still useful. Part of the SAGA chipset preferrably.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
11 Oct 2018 20:36


Andrew Copland wrote:

  Something that we talked about doing for Natami, but simplified as far as is still useful. Part of the SAGA chipset preferrably.

There were some mentions some basic "3d chip" (NOT as modern GPU) might come back from Natami for v4. Hope its effects + AMMX could reach basic w3d compatibility at best.

Designer was Gunnar
"The 3D core of this NatAmi chipset was designed by me" (Gunnars personal website)




Andrew Copland

Posts 113
11 Oct 2018 20:55


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

There were some mentions some basic "3d chip" (NOT as modern GPU) might come back from Natami for v4. Hope its effects + AMMX could reach basic w3d compatibility at best.
 
Designer was Gunnar
"The 3D core of this NatAmi chipset was designed by me" (Gunnars personal website)

Yeah I was there (Natami) I helped implement a software version of the core to test ideas :)

Gunnar had already done an earlier version though.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
11 Oct 2018 21:43


Andrew Copland wrote:

  Yeah I was there (Natami) I helped implement a software version of the core to test ideas :)
  Gunnar had already done an earlier version though.
 

 
  Nice. Since that is MOST likely to be any 3D for Vamp, can you let us know what were the basic 3D feats compared to e.g. S3 Virge feature set?
 
  Since we have Blitter in SAGA
 
  3D texture mapping, 90s 3D was:
 
      Perspective correction, flat and Gouraud shading. ViRGE/DX and later feature 'parallel processing' perspective correction for better performance
      Bilinear and trilinear texture filtering, MIP Mapping, alpha blending, and video texture mapping. Trilinear filtering is full-speed on ViRGE/DX and later, termed 'SmartFilter' technology.
      Depth cueing and fogging, Z-buffering
 
  Surely, MiniGL/Warp3D driver for this chip is something that would be great, at least to provide basic 3D, but that is in AEONs assets now (laisy hands - not much defined development priorities)
 
  So, somewhat improved implementation was, less used, Haage & Partner StormMESA EXTERNAL LINK 
  I wonder could that be developed further/licensed.


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
12 Oct 2018 01:39


Here's a great paper on creating a 3D accelerator in a FPGA:
EXTERNAL LINK


Thellier Alain

Posts 141
12 Oct 2018 09:41


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

not so many w3d 68k apps and games anyway.




Andrew Copland

Posts 113
12 Oct 2018 12:06


Chicken and egg, there weren't a lot of home console 3D games until the PlayStation. Now they're the majority and we use 3D acceleration even for 2D effects and UI.


Thellier Alain

Posts 141
12 Oct 2018 13:05


thellier alain wrote:

  not so many w3d 68k apps and games anyway.

Ouups I forgot the message :
But FPSE the playstation emulator that have Warp3D plugin is the ONE app to have: It will allow to play looots of playstation games even 3D games like Gran Turismo

EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK 
Alain

Note:I have tested Gran Turismo in FPSE-OS3/Wazp3D/WinUAE and it start

 




Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
12 Oct 2018 13:07


thellier alain wrote:

      not so many w3d 68k apps and games anyway.
   

   
    All true, but Vamp could make that blossom too.
   
    PPC+W3d were pair at Classics ends, so shall be 080+SAGA towards future. We do need some form of 3D, since we do have RTG and they used to go hand by hand.
   
    What is your opinion of StormMESA? There are a lot of demos on Aminet
 
  I hope v4 could do the FPSE one day, by FPSE 080-MMX optimization,  wazp3d optimization and 080 core pushing (v4+) united as one effect.


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
12 Oct 2018 18:42


The trick is to look at OpenGL and...well preferrably Vulkan but I guess one must crawl first...and see what are the function calls then make chip functionality for them so you aren't depending on software.

This is what Microsoft did with the DirectX api...they just kept adding more and more functionality with each version and the hardware vendors (GPU makers) tasked themselves with creating hardware to perform those functions.  But at the api level - routines are done in software until the hardware driver (and actual hardware) catches up.


Andrew Copland

Posts 113
12 Oct 2018 18:48


I would go even simpler than that, what takes the time and it hard to accelerate on the CPU, is simple rasterisation of triangles.

It's relatively easy to accelerate, texture fetch latency can be hidden by queueing multiple pixels for processing using tiles (eg: 2x2, 4x4 etc), it's great for parallel processing if you have FPGA space in the future.

Remember all those titles on the PSX etc were just one light source and one texture. Very simple blend effects. I can't remember if they even had a z-buffer or just used painters algorithm.

All this talk of Vulkan etc misses the point that a full GPU is a nightmare of complexity.


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
12 Oct 2018 19:06


Andrew Copland wrote:

  All this talk of Vulkan etc misses the point that a full GPU is a nightmare of complexity.
 

  Yes, but that's why expecting a [CELL chip] cpu-only solution is pure hubris.  No amount of AMMX execution units added to the 080 will solve the problem...
 
  Which brings me to a point... Looking back at my previous post...  Someone does need to port Warp/Wazp 3D to run on the 080.  From there, the team then can analyze what functions could be accelerated by adding them to the [SAGA/SAGA3D] hardware implementation...


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
14 Oct 2018 19:52


Louis Dias wrote:

        Which brings me to a point... Looking back at my previous post...  Someone does need to port Warp/Wazp 3D to run on the 080.  From there, the team then can analyze what functions could be accelerated by adding them to the [SAGA/SAGA3D] hardware implementation...
     

     
      Not now, over time and FPGA progress, would love to see support of OpenGL to a level heavily modified Quake engine would work well in conjunction of OpenGL unit, SAGA 2D accel., 080 and AMMX. That would be the Amiga way.
     
      In termms of gaming Source engine would be great end goal. With enhanced Halflife original, enhanced Team fortress and Counterstrike and such nice titles as Vampire The Masquerade, Sin Episode and Dystopia, "would make Vampire great again" (and Amiga in 3D).
     
      As no hardware dude, I always admired "Original 3D accel" - the Glint 3D. That kind of chip in FPGA would resolve all the 3D we need.
     
      3DLABS was an early pioneer in bringing 3D graphics to the PC. Its GLINT 300SX graphics processor was the industry's first single chip, 3D-capable graphics device that was shipped on graphics boards from multiple vendors. Gamma was the first single chip graphics geometry processor for the PC. Permedia was the first low-cost OpenGL accelerator chip. 3Dlabs was a member of the OpenGL Architecture Review Board and played an important role in the development of OpenGL 2.0 and ongoing evolution of the OpenGL API.
      3D Blaster VLB
   
    In 1995 3Dlabs targeted gamers and managed to reduce price to level suitable for consumer market and together with Creative launched 3D Blaster for Christmas. As the only texture mapper for VL-Bus this card is truly special, limited to 486 platform with exception of rare Socket 5 boards.
    EXTERNAL LINK      (Note: 3Dlabs is now owned by Intel. Hey,hey,hey Intel FPGA and Intel 3D gonna save Amiga! :-)
     
    * * *
      Other approach would be to start where Amiga left - in polygon 3D. No longer wired like on CBM and Speccy elite, we had 3D shooters, 3D Guardian style adventures (Robocop, Another World ...). That could be SAGA enhriched with effects and textures, maybe even Voxels like Comanche and Barbados Race.
 
  This path would include enabling Warp3D titles (and m68k MMU!) and if possible, a nice PPC603 2 080 JIT enabling those few W3D PPC titles and some MOS 1.x,WarpOS/PowerUp tools, plugins etc. I dont know how CPU microcoding went well, Transmenta didnt seem too performmant. Software taxing is -30% with nice JIT so we would need 150Mhz 080 to do 100Mhz 603 nicely. Sommeone would have a wet dream and run OS4 on it :-)


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
14 Oct 2018 21:45


Louis Dias wrote:

    ---><8
     
      Which brings me to a point... Looking back at my previous post...  Someone does need to port Warp/Wazp 3D to run on the 080.  From there, the team then can analyze what functions could be accelerated by adding them to the [SAGA/SAGA3D] hardware implementation...
   

   
   
    Mr Dias, you do realize Alain Thellier here in the forums is the author of Wazp3d? ;-) He has come with practical input to Gunnar to make such a thing easier and more efficent... (Meaning basically you can sort of cheat by adding specifically requested isntructions to AMMX to boost performance)
    EXTERNAL LINK     
    Also, what you say is not wrong, just not new.
  [Edit:] (links didnt point to right thread, but..)simply enter wazp3d in the search box in the forum and you'll find plenty of threads with this topic.
   
    Cheers
   
   

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