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Help Please! Arria10 Vs Cyclone5?

Andy Hearn

Posts 374
04 Aug 2017 11:18


just been reading up a bit after getting excited about the Vamp4 news (woohoo!!).
 
  now.
  as I understand it. the Arria10 is only a possibility for consideration for the stand-alone board?
 
  the way I read things made it seem that way, but with a potential for bigbox A3/4k machines to maybe get an Arria10 loaded vampire accelerator?

sorry to put this in this forum, but I really wasn't sure where else to go?
 
  initially it looked like I would like a vamp4 for every machine I can plug one into, but now I read that there is (always) the possibility of an Arria10 loaded vamp for classic machines?
 
  And another post someone else pretty much stated outright that an Arria10 was just full on overkill for a classic machine, and this would never even be put forward for consideration.
 
  so what do I do? do I wait for a mythical Arria10 board for my miggys, or do I buy into the Vampire4?
 


Mr Niding

Posts 459
04 Aug 2017 11:25


Im not going to speak for the team, but Gregthecanuck replied in the V1200 thread (hes also just a normal user, but with much more knowledge than me);

Price of Arria10 "Those chips are expensive - $400 and up."

As such, I wouldnt hold my breath with regads to a standalone with an Arria10.

But I will let people that know more comment futher.


Peter Heginbotham

Posts 214
04 Aug 2017 11:26


Don't hold your breathe for a Arria10 any time soon.


Andy Hearn

Posts 374
04 Aug 2017 11:38


ok cool, I figured as much, so, when the Vamp4 becomes available - i'll review my options; after trying to keep my ear to the ground in the meantime. :)




Ian Parsons

Posts 230
04 Aug 2017 12:27


Given the cost and expected performance increase it may be better to go for an ASIC rather than Arria 10 for an upgrade from the Cyclone 5. I don't know, I'm just speculating but it's good to see the team continuing to innovate.


Renaud Schweingruber
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 378
04 Aug 2017 13:39


Cyclone 10 GX would also be a good candidate for a "Bugatti Veyron Vampire" :)


Mr Niding

Posts 459
04 Aug 2017 13:44


Renaud Schweingruber wrote:

Cyclone 10 GX would also be a good candidate for a "Bugatti Veyron Vampire" :)

You know this will be read around the Amiga forums as "Tuko confirms that V5 will contain Cyclone 10 GX!!! To be relased next week!"

Find a foxhole and take cover :)


Renaud Schweingruber
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 378
04 Aug 2017 13:50


Oh no, this is nothing, I just browsed Altera portfolio ! :)


Andy Hearn

Posts 374
04 Aug 2017 14:38


Sorry my bad! :D didn't mean to spark a comments war or set anyones expectations!

 


M Rickan

Posts 177
04 Aug 2017 23:04


Andy Hearn wrote:

Sorry my bad! :D didn't mean to spark a comments war or set anyones expectations!
 

If you're going to dream...

But... based on a cursory look at the specs, the interfacing appears to be specific to each FPGA processor family, meaning entirely different boards would need to be developed.

An ASIC would make more sense with significant volume but I suspect that the up-front costs would be tough to rationalize.

Oddly enough, the main competition for the V4 will likely be the Tabor.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
04 Aug 2017 23:11


m rickan wrote:
  Oddly enough, the main competition for the V4 will likely be the Tabor.
   

   
    Maybe in possible price area. But then again, why would I get slower hardware, an SAM440/460 replacement, yet with no hardware based Amiga compatibility and no altivec? Again, strange CPU choice with benefit of same PPC BE Linux blockstone, as well as same or even worser state of AOS 4.1.8 (and currentnly no onboard sound and network drivers and god knows which state of Stevens SATA drivers)?
   
    Until at least modern brower and office are done for OS4, to exploit long promised and present power ... OS4 is really not needed.
   
    Yes, its a long road to tweak OS 3.9 and some apps are stuck in OS4 limbo, but out of box overall Amiga compatibility is on Vampire side. And Apollo OS/AmiKit X bring it really close, if 68k development takes pace in any form (Linux 68k, AROS 68k) it might soon enable same or better power use then my A1-X1000 First Encouters with AEON system (which is 4GB ddr2 FAST, 2GB DDr5 VRAM, Sound Blaster 5.1, An old network card just for OS 4.1, SSD, Catweasel and FDD, 2TB HDD for data, 2 USB kempstons and RadeonHD 7000 1Ghz edition but avail no use - 2017 and still in beta!)


Andy Hearn

Posts 374
05 Aug 2017 19:52


ok i'm in.
I like the idea of no matter what vampire you have, either the v2 or the v4, we'll have a baseline for a standard spec. and capabilities.

Arria10 or Cyclone5 - its all just going to be academic when all is said and done.



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
05 Aug 2017 21:17


Andy Hearn wrote:

ok i'm in.
  I like the idea of no matter what vampire you have, either the v2 or the v4, we'll have a baseline for a standard spec. and capabilities.

Yes, SAGA and CPU (beside a bit higher freq and caches and faster RAM) are the same. Nice way forward.



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
07 Aug 2017 14:26


Gunnars hypotesys on possible speed with Arria based Vampire,
has suddenly became a "possible product" in "Amiga news"
EXTERNAL LINK 


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
07 Aug 2017 17:15


You simply CAN'T MAKE "bang for buck" comparisons to ANY current hardware used in other computers/cellphones/tablets/video game systems.

Those are made by companies valued at $xx to $xxx,000 millions of dollars US!!!!

BUT, computer users are willing to shell out as much as, let's say, top end US$1,000 for eccentric systems.

That, I believe is a viable "power user" niche market for Vampires.

Arria 10 standalones should be possible in the $500 to $800 US range.


Mr Niding

Posts 459
07 Aug 2017 19:09


Wasnt the Arria quoted to be 400 bucks for the cpu itself?

How can that translate into 500 dollar product in the end for a low unit run? The rest of the card and components comes ontop, then you got the factory having to adjust for the new card (might be quick, I dont know). And shipping/vendors want a %.


M Rickan

Posts 177
07 Aug 2017 20:36


Mr Niding wrote:

Wasnt the Arria quoted to be 400 bucks for the cpu itself?

Unless the base card supports interchangeable processor modules this is all pure fantasy.

I don't doubt that there is a market for a high-end Vampire but if it approaches $1K to provide x86 emulation speeds there are better options.

Of course, the Apollo core can be licensed so perhaps a third party could take this on.

I'd rather see a sponsored/crowdfunded ASIC.


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
07 Aug 2017 21:35


Mr Niding wrote:
Wasnt the Arria quoted to be 400 bucks for the cpu itself?

How can that translate into 500 dollar product in the end for a low unit run?


Mr Niding,

Well, there's an Arria 10,

EXTERNAL LINK 
that is $350, and going up to $600.

But now, because they're going through commercial outlets, they can't make the $500 price point that they almost could have before, they'll be closer to $1,000. :-(((

M Rickan wrote:
I don't doubt that there is a market for a high-end Vampire but if it approaches $1K to provide x86 emulation speeds there are better options.

Hi M Rickan,

While there are x86 computers that could be used to emulate very fast Amigas, those will NEVER EVER EVER be able to boot up as quickly as a FPGA Arria 10 Amiga could.

And it is unlikely that anyone will ever code the Apollo Core for windows. Even if they did, it COULD NOT imitate that many components that the Apollo Core introduces into the Amiga world of coding possibilities that we now have and keep up to our machines.


Gregthe Canuck

Posts 274
08 Aug 2017 04:43



We can discuss these FPGA generations ad-nauseam but I think what everyone is realizing is that FPGAs (just like CPUs) go through generational speed, feature and price updates. The next cool thing is coming and so on...

The next step from Cyclone 5? Who knows. It could be a Cyclone 10 (recently announced) or an Arria 10, or maybe both? However I expect the current V4 series of boards to be an 18 to 24 month generation. By that time the next-gen chips will be at a "reasonable" price level that makes that next bump in performance and capability feasible... similar to the current III to V jump.

It would be nice to see the fantasies of future FPGA put aside for now and everyone to get behind the V4 series. This new platform needs a lot of attention in a number of areas (development tools, operating system support, documentation, testing) that must be addressed first.

 

posts 19