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Information to Amikitpage  1 2 3 4 5 

Antony Coello

Posts 153
16 Dec 2020 20:33


I just had a look on the Amikit site, to see what all the arguments are about.

Im not really an Amiga OS expert, but Im really not sure what the product is aiming for?

It looks to me like a 'fully loaded' Amiga OS image for either WINUAE or a Vampire v2 that does not include the actual OS/ROMs or an option for imaging onto a HDD on the 'real' classic hardware.

I would much rather have preferred something like this in a Windows writeable drive image for a 'real' A500/1200 IDE/SCSI drive, as I have more trouble with the real thing than with WinUAE (which makes it so much easier; I can drag/install to a Windows HDD the apps I need fairly easily, change HW, etc). But there is no option for 'real' hardware(!?)

So without the real hardware option (except for Vampire), it just looks like direct competition for Coffin/ApolloOS (which are free).

What am I missing?


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
16 Dec 2020 21:19


In short: Its largets collection of AmigaOS expansions that was aimed first at emulation since it was supposed to offer true colour themes and icons, and most advanced and updated legal software, since day one.

AmigaOS and ROMs are not included because of Amigaworld mambo jumbo, but most of past Amiga users have that and purchase of these with AmiKit from retailers enabled fully usable distro in lets say Linux style of providing many usefull tools that did not came with barebone AmigaOS. Later on it expanded to games too.
  Installation is simlified to the max, and it includes some extras rarely available. It has longest tradition of collecting and updating AmigaOS, so its now in its 11th incarnation, with version 8 available for free.

Until Vampire came along, it was not possible to use it on classical hardware. So the Vampire version came along. Same distro was built for V2 and V4, quite highly priced but I really like it and own a PC version too. Version for V4 works with non AROS ROM, since it was never prepared to use such. Jan (author) owns V4, but claims was not informed at time needed.

It can be seen as competition to Coffin, but Coffin seems to be retired for legal reasons, so all Apollo team efforts are onto enhancing ApolloOS - advanced AROS distro, tailored to be only fully optimized for Vamps. SAGA drivers support to AmigaOS continues, for those of this choices.

High price of Vampire version is justified by long testing and inclusion of Vampire related software.

In my eyes, more options to Vampire users, the merrier, be it AmigaOS 3.9/3.1.4 clean and then upgraded, free and to be most optimized ApolloOS, or jamapacked distros like AmiKit and Coffin.

Hope it helps.


Antony Coello

Posts 153
16 Dec 2020 22:34


Thanks for the explanation Vojin. :)

Looking into it more, it seems that Amikit and Apollo are at 'odds' because the V4SA is now moving on using non AmigaOS ROMs/OS to avoid any legal/copyright issues, which has put the Amikit guy in a sticky situation now.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 690
17 Dec 2020 09:28


Amikit is compareable to a linux distro and a big collection of amiga software patches based on 3.1 roms and using 3.9 (cannot remember if also 3.5) for the OS parts


Michal Pietal

Posts 236
17 Dec 2020 10:39


Maybe a community effort would do here and resolve this issue?

I have 2 weeks off starting next Tuesday (except for Christmas) and upon my skills, I would definitely contribute to make AmiKit work under recent V4SA conditions!!

Provided that, of course, I am allowed to work on the environment (or a part of thereof) that has been enabled for the regular users, which in turn, allows to have the patch delivered.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
17 Dec 2020 11:38


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

    Amikit is compareable to a linux distro and a big collection of amiga software patches based on 3.1 roms and using 3.9 (cannot remember if also 3.5) for the OS parts
   

   
    It works with OS 3.5, I use OS 3.5 as base as I have it from old days
   
   
   
Michal Pietal wrote:

    Maybe a community effort would do here and resolve this issue?
   

   
   
    There seems to be two paths:
   
    a) To get LZX archive of AmiKit Vampire and request step by step manual how to partition from Apollo team, and then you could install AmiKit manually OR for Apollo team to send detailed info how FAT partition could be set up, so Jan can prepare your card as needed
   
    b) To flash your V4 with AmigaOS compatible ROM where you might loose option to boot ApolloOS (or not? This needs to be confirmed by Apollo team), if existing as option at all
   
    Either both sides being "insulted brides" (we call it like that in Slavic countries, I am sure there are "two arians in hill" expression in English) does not solve the issue for the users.
 
 
Antony Coello wrote:

  Thanks for the explanation Vojin. :)
 
  Looking into it more, it seems that Amikit and Apollo are at 'odds' because the V4SA is now moving on using non AmigaOS ROMs/OS to avoid any legal/copyright issues, which has put the Amikit guy in a sticky situation now.
 

 
  AmiKit was always 101% legal and kind of longest one in preserving AmigaOS heritage and updating it, so I have soft spot to it. Maybe only comparable product out there is Amiga Forever package, but kind of gives more games less advanced OS.
 
  It just wasnt ready for AROS ROM as its rarely used. I dont see Amikit and ApolloOS as mutually eliminating each one - in fact, I would love to use both.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 690
17 Dec 2020 16:34


I think you guys do not understand the problem... V4 can use any rom, not just aros roms. The problem is it uses the installed roms for booting (on V4 normally aros roms) that detect the partitions and start the OS. Amikit is parly sold as a partitioned card and unfortunately aros first detects a FAT-Partition on it and tries to boot it whereas the simpler amiga roms do not detect it and boot from the correct partition. Solution would be different partitioning of the cards.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
17 Dec 2020 17:18


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

  I think you guys do not understand the problem... V4 can use any rom, not just aros roms. The problem is it uses the installed roms for booting (on V4 normally aros roms) that detect the partitions and start the OS. Amikit is parly sold as a partitioned card and unfortunately aros first detects a FAT-Partition on it and tries to boot it whereas the simpler amiga roms do not detect it and boot from the correct partition. Solution would be different partitioning of the cards.
 

 
Olaf is 100% correct.

A very simple partition change on Amikit CF would fix it.
This change is simple and easy todo and would have no drawbacks for  running on UAE or anywhere else.
 
 
 


NoXLar - DemoSceneLover

Posts 63
18 Dec 2020 04:02


so basically he need to make sure amigakit bootable os partition is flagged/priority first when making partitions.  then he can boot the os with aros rom right?


Michal Pietal

Posts 236
18 Dec 2020 21:44


Willem Drijver wrote:

  Best solution for V4 users running on AROS based Cores is not to go with the physical CF-Card, but use the LZX-version to create own dedicated AmiKIT CF-card (or AmiKit Partition on multi boot CF-Card if you use V4BL). Then the whole "FAT partition" issue is not applicable at all and AmiKit runs fine. If you run V4 with Amiga OS based Core then also the AmiKit CF-Card runs OK.
 

 
  Dear Willem.
 
  Today I thought about it a lot.
 
  Your V4BL script settles this all.
 
  Would You please resolve this by releasing the script (the AmiKit Install) which
  1) takes LZX archive
  2) copies everything on a CF (not the CF for V4BL but CF from Jan)
 
  Would that be possible without tackling the partitions from Jan's CF?
 
  Otherwise, how much code is needed (and firstly, is it doable, at all) so that Your script alters the partitions on Jan's CF, from the command-line?
 
  This would resolve the issue, having an out-of-the-box (or the same but with the need of som extra coding) solution.
 
  ??

If the re-partition code is needed, I might try.  I have off for two weeks soon (except for X-mas)!


Carlos Milán

Posts 95
20 Dec 2020 16:43


In AmigaOS kickstart you can select the partition to boot from the early-startup menu (hold two mouse buttons). Also, the Amiga partitions store the boot priority, so you don't need to constantly use the early-startup.

Is not there a way in AROS kickstart to work in a similar way regardless of the additional nice and really useful support for FAT filesystem?


James Husted
(Needs Verification)
Posts 81/ 3
20 Dec 2020 17:48


why are you all still trying to find ways to fix this? Gunner has already said what needs to be done, and it needs to be done buy the Amikit creator.


Carlos Milán

Posts 95
20 Dec 2020 19:12


James Husted wrote:

why are you all still trying to find ways to fix this? Gunner has already said what needs to be done, and it needs to be done buy the Amikit creator.

My message intent is to better understand AROS, no to fix anything :)


NoXLar - DemoSceneLover

Posts 63
21 Dec 2020 11:25


how hard is it for end users to do just what needed? buy the wrongly  partioned image.  copy somewhere and make bootable partition and copy all the stuff from image? 


Willem Drijver
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 127
21 Dec 2020 18:28


Hello Michal,

Best advice I can give for V4SA users that want to use AmiKit-XE is to forget about fixing the AmiKit supplied CF-card and use it for some different purpose. The root cause lies in the partitioning scheme which conflicts with AROS roms. I think that enough is said about the technical background and without a complete repartitioning this cannot be fixed.

Better focus on a structural solution: Buy a new 64Gb or 128Gb CF-Card and switch to V4BL which supports automated AmiKit-XE install from the amikitxe-vampire.lzx base archive file that all AmiKit users have. The upcoming V4BL V2.4 will support AmiKit-XE running on either Amiga OS 3.9 + BB1 or Amiga OS 3.1.4.

V4BL is available for free after registration by mail: willemdrijver@mac.com 



Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
21 Dec 2020 19:48


Willem Drijver wrote:

  The root cause lies in the partitioning scheme which conflicts with AROS roms.
 

 
  Thanks for great V4BL, which could be saviour once again.
 
  What about re-introducing AmigaOS early boot menu ability to pick partition from which it will boot (to AROS ROM), that would also be able to resolve this (and other possible similar issues).

Autoboot is nice, but more options, the marrier.


Robert Downs

Posts 31
21 Dec 2020 20:25


It is not "wrongly partitioned" unless an AROS KICK is used.  It is clear the KICK is not coded with much forethought.  It appears it is booting from the fist partition without checking for being bootable.  I see this as a bug, not a feature. (an opinion like everyone else's, I admit)

Perhaps there is a possibility to improve the AROS kick such that it boots from the first "bootable" partition, and if not found then boot from FAT, although this will probably break V4BL and such logic might not fit in ROM.

It is true, Jan could build and reissue a new image, assuming the FAT partition would remain visible to Windows/Linux/Mac (A critical function to simplify the automated install of a legal copy of OS and ROM) in that case, but I suspect, as I do, he believes there will be changes coming down the pipe that will break AmigaOS in the future (intentional or not) and likely rather focus on projects that reach a wider audience like AmiHybrid/Amibian than be subject to having to repair an install base at random due to compatibility changes.  I doubt there is interest by Hyperion to code 3.2 to be ApolloOS AROS kick compatible and introduce the same FAT support thereby forcing everyone's hand to adhere to this design, and I know Apollo Team cares less about Hyperion or their customers and have stated they will not "fix" the recent changes that caused this problem.

Impasse


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
21 Dec 2020 20:38


Robert Downs wrote:

and I know Apollo Team cares less about Hyperion or their customers and have stated they will not "fix" the recent changes that caused this problem.

   
I think one can look at this from many angles.
One thing is clear: The AROS kick behaves like this since many years.
   
As you will recall the sales of the V4 started at Amiga 34 event in October 2019. And already before this event it was clearly announced that V4 will come preinstalled with Aros.
     
Everything was clearly communicated from day one, I think no one can here speak of a surprise.
   
14 month would have been a lot time to make the partitions layout compatible.
   
Any Amiga-Kick can easily be loaded on the V4 with a simple shell command. This works perfectly fine in all V4 releases.
A very good solution for the Amikit users will be - if Amikit simply loaded the Kick from CF. This is very fast and works fine.
I think this would have been a perfect working solution.
 
If Jan not wants to to do this then in my opinion the correct behavior would have been to not advertise it for the V4.
 
I find it not correct, that Jan advertised his Amikit CF to V4 owners and sold the CF for $98 - while he was fully aware that people buying his CF will not get it to boot.
 
This seems to me reckless and careless of people.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
22 Dec 2020 10:17


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    I find it not correct, that Jan advertised his Amikit CF to V4 owners and sold the CF for $80 - while he was fully aware that people buying his CF will not get it to boot. 
    This seems to me reckless and careless of people.
 

 
  Just to be fair to Jan, an LZX archive was always avail for manual install, at reduced price. He claims he developed it on V4 that he got supplied with Amiga compatible ROM that could boot the card.
 
  Before this thread, page explaining how to override the card problem was available.
 
  The only result of the situation is that he honestly removed mention of V4 and that V4 is supported to avoid to be careless, even the archive works on V4 when properly installed.
 
  So, I dont detect reckless and careless behavior. Surely situation could be better with either improvement of AROS ROM or special partitioned cards for V4, but neither seems to be happening.

So it leaves possibility for V4 users to get LZX archive and do it manually, if desired, as described in this thread.
 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
22 Dec 2020 10:42


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  I dont detect reckless and careless behavior.   
 

 
  Amikit sold ready to use CF for $98 to Vampire owner - knowing in advance that these CF will not boot.
 
Amikit told the unhappy customers this is the fault of Aros.
"As Aros could would not be able to support FAT partitions." <- which is simply not true
 
Amikit also emailed the unhappy customers to contact the Apollo-Team and ask there for a fix to Aros so that Aros support FAT or they shall ask for a pirate copy of OS3.
 
How would you call this behavior?


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